Off topic posts in politics threads

Discussion in 'PropertyChat Community & Website' started by Guest, 24th Jan, 2019.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If people are breaking these rules (e.g. posting off topic, using ad hominem attacks), why not start with short term bans (on the politics section) instead of punishing specific discussions (by closure)?

    re Guilt by MAGA hat

    If you invite people to report the issues when the moderation is seen as one sided, then it seems unfair to resort to closure when that is what they do:
     
    Guest, 24th Jan, 2019
    #1
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  2. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Don't feel it's one-sided. I've had many posts removed or significantly altered
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    Lizzie, 24th Jan, 2019
    #2
  3. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    The problem Guest is that on one side you are complaining that so many posts are off topic, and yet I couldn't work out from your original post (when originally posted), exactly what the topic was (at least not to the degree where I could easily identify which posts were actually off topic).

    I considered removing your post initially as being too vague - but decided to let it run and see what happened.

    The issue is that while the thread is ostensibly about the MAGA hat incident, by mentioning the criticism of of Trump/Republican supporters in the final sentence of your post - you opened it up to broader discussion about Trump, which is where all these "off topic" posts come into it.

    Based on comments I've seen by you in other threads, it is clear that while not specifically a Trump supporter - you do (justifiably!) have an issue with the sometimes hysterical reporting by certain elements of the media about him. That is clearly the intent behind your post - the treatment of the hat incident by the media simply being one more example of this.

    I removed several replies to your post early on because at first glance, they were off topic - but then reconsidered because when you consider the broader intent behind your post, they really weren't.

    Every time there is an accusation of a post being off topic, I need to trace back through the thread to see why that post was made (ie what it was responding to), and identify whether other posts also require deletion. The challenge is when the post that was being replied to wasn't really off topic - then it's difficult to justify deleting the reply to it.

    Case in point - a post which directly addresses the final sentence in your post by suggesting that people should stop complaining about Trump because he was the president chosen by the people - which is subsequently refuted by an "off topic" post pointing out the factual issue where he actually did not receive the majority vote and was only elected because of quirks of their electoral college system. Which itself directly addresses the question of why people are so angry with the decisions being made by Trump because the majority of the country did NOT vote for him and they are very angry with the way has been behaving as president.

    Do you see my point? By making your post a proxy for the debate about anti-Trump sentiment in the media, you're opening the thread up to discussion about WHY there is such anti-Trump sentiment and that can only be done by discussing the decisions Trump has made and what impact they have on people - and suddenly your topic is extremely broad and anything goes. Which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid in Politics threads because we end up going around and around on the same topics once again.

    If your post was simply about the MAGA hat incident, then there would have been one or two posts tut-tutting the behaviour of everyone and then it would have died. But that's not what your post was about - it was actually about the treatment of Trump by the media - and that is an extremely broad topic where arguably, very little is actually off topic.

    To be clear: I (barely) tolerate the Politics forum, and I am not willing to waste a large amount of time dealing with problems there (particularly in dealing with US politics rather than AU politics) when there are much more important discussions happening elsewhere on the forum which do deserve the attention of moderators.

    The alternative is to just delete such threads, or simply go back to banning political discussion completely - which I am trying to avoid doing.

    My suggestion is to keep threads which are about controversial topics as narrowly focused as possible to make it simple to judge whether a post is on topic or not.
     
    Last edited: 10th Oct, 2021
    Simon Hampel, 24th Jan, 2019
    #3
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  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I see your point, but disagree that comments related to the ethics of abortion (or popular vote) or calling someone's opinion naive were within the spirit of the thread topic or rules.
    Treatment of Trump supporters and Republicans (which in my opinion IS actually quite specific and not vague), not Trump.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 24th Jan, 2019
    Guest, 24th Jan, 2019
    #4
  5. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    Given that your original post was 95%+ about the MAGA hat incident (by word count at least) - you do need to investigate WHY those people were there in the first place and what their motivation was. Not exactly off topic.

    The point about white males campaigning on abortion is kind of very relevant to the discussion and how the whole incident came about.

    Which kind of proves my point - that's a very subtle distinction and one that is very difficult to police given that one cannot generally exist without the other.

    Perhaps if you had explicitly stated that your post was NOT about Trump, it may have taken a different path.
     
    Last edited: 10th Oct, 2021
    Simon Hampel, 24th Jan, 2019
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  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    So first my post was so vague you couldn't work it out, now it's so specific that there's only a subtle difference between the topic I raised and some other one?

    It feels like US political threads that aren't based around criticisms of Trump are going to be very difficult to create and keep open on this forum.
     
    Guest, 24th Jan, 2019
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  7. radson

    radson Well-Known Member

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    Guest . Mate..seriously .Its an amazing would out there. Enjoy it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    radson, 24th Jan, 2019
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  8. MTR

    MTR Well-Known Member

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    I think I have been saying this for a long time and why it cant work on PC for obvious reasons

    ... :p
    i am enjoying your threads, just dont get banned
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    MTR, 24th Jan, 2019
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  9. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    You missed my point, which was that I (and it seems most other posters) took your thread topic to be very broad - whereas you have since informed me that it was actually very specific, a point which we all missed because it wasn't clearly explained (hence my comment).
     
    Last edited: 10th Oct, 2021
    Simon Hampel, 24th Jan, 2019
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  10. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    You do realise that Guest isn't actually pro-Trump? He is actually anti-anti-Trump! (confusing, right?)
     
    Last edited: 10th Oct, 2021
    Simon Hampel, 24th Jan, 2019
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  11. MTR

    MTR Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter?

    I agree with many points he has made in various political threads
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    MTR, 24th Jan, 2019
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    Guest likes this.
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    That's a narrow way of looking at it (though not necessarily wrong).

    I would say I am more anti-dogmatism, especially when it concerns politics, economics, religion, etc. I can't stand when people post bigoted / baked on views through one of these lenses without seeing reason, just choosing to stick to their particular "team".

    It just so happens there are a number of individuals with a heavy liberal bias on this forum that love talking about how everything Trump does is wrong, so that is why my posts appear anti-anti-Trump.

    If the forum was full of conservatives praising everything Trump does (instead of criticising it) I expect my posts would be very different.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    Guest, 24th Jan, 2019
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  13. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    But why? Conservatives (in the USA) are pro-Trump so they are already praising everything. I think you may have confused conservative and liberal/socialism?

    Please be aware that socialism and communism are two completely different ideologies with nothing substantial in common. Don't mix them up like last time.

    I do find it amusing that pro-Trumper's seem to think calling those of us who don't agree with his actions as Liberals/Liberalism/Libtards as if it is somehow derogatory - whereas it's actually a huge compliment.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States:
    Modern liberalism in the United States     includes issues such as same-sex marriage, reproductive and other women's rights, voting rightsfor all adult citizens, civil rights, environmental justice, and government protection of freedom from want.[1] National social services such as: equal education opportunities; access to health care; and transportation infrastructure are intended to meet the responsibility to "promote the general welfare" of all citizens.

    Liberal definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

    Liberal traits are:
    - optimistic about the future
    - willing to let go of historical idea
    - open to new concepts
    - embrace change
    - feel empathy for others
    - believe in equality of choice (not forced equality)
    - providing a safety net for those less fortunate
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    Lizzie, 24th Jan, 2019
    #13
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't believe I have confused anything, but if it would help you to understand (forgetting the political labels): the way some individuals rage about Trump indiscriminately (i.e. "everything he does is wrong") is almost a religion in itself. It's dogmatic. It's bigotry when aimed at those who support his policies i.e. because of a hat they wear. Such biases have no place in well reasoned discussion.
     
    Guest, 24th Jan, 2019
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  15. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Sorry - you mentioned "conservatives praising Trump" as if it would be an anomaly - but conservatives do praise Trump by their very nature. I also remember there was an interesting debate in the politics section regarding the "wall" that you were involved in, and there was someone who was declaring that socialism was communism but the comments were deleted. It may have been Cowpat.

    But back on topic. The hat is seen as an identifier of belief - no different from a Hijab or Turban or Kippah. I do not believe anyone should be targeted for their head wear but sadly they are.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    Lizzie, 24th Jan, 2019
    #15
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Of course that wouldn't be an anomaly. My point is that if there was a subforum full of political commentators praising Trump (no matter what he did) then my posts would probably come across as anti-pro-Trump. If you still don't get it, perhaps read back over my previous post a couple of times until it clicks.
    Wasn't me.
     
    Guest, 24th Jan, 2019
    #16
  17. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Ah wasn't clear - "If the forum was full of conservatives praising everything Trump does (instead of criticising it)" - as conservatives already praise everything Trump does.

    Glad it wasn't you ... as blind biases frustrate me endless also
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    Lizzie, 24th Jan, 2019
    #17
  18. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Doh and aha. Just twigged what you are getting at. The fact that there seems to be a stronger anti voice on pc than pro.

    Don't misread, we aren't anti Trump, Trump bashers. To be such would indicate we sit in a huddle all day and bag on about his fake tan or eating habits or choice of Christmas trees or bone spurs. We couldn't care less about him personally and have little patience for the bashing memes that pop up on social media.

    What we don't like, as socialist liberals, are a lot of Trumps more controversial policies and views. Holding people's wages to ransom because his wall funding has been refused - overriding the will of the democratically elected government - separating kids as young as 3 from their parents and locking them in crowded cages - stripping funding from hurricane relief programs - derogatory name calling of respected public figures - introducing trade wars that are hurting hiss own citizens - stripping healthcare from the most vulnerable (to name but a few) , which are usually fairly debated with the inclusion of unbiased information sources.

    Those who get banned from such discussions are those who take the debate to a name calling gutter level. - or constantly post propaganda material.

    What riles is unsubstantiated blind devotion and unquestioning belief in what he claims. Trump is a proven liar, so to quote, unchecked, what he says as factualand only supported by known propaganda website links, is demeaning to an intellectual debate.

    Just because there is a more vocal socialist view on this website, which I believe is a good thing (refer to the liberal traits I posted earlier), doesn't warrant an anti anti standpoint. Yes, they media got the hat thing wrong in this instance but, again as pointed out above, sadly it is often human nature to judge by the identifying attire worn.

    You will find the liberals on here are quite willing to accept an alternative, or corrected, viewpoint if backed by unbiased truth and fact
     
    Lizzie, 25th Jan, 2019
    #18
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  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Anti-Trump sentiment comes in many forms, it doesn't have to be the most extreme form to be problematic and exuding a clear bias.
     
    Guest, 25th Jan, 2019
    #19
  20. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    Just the same as pro-Trump bias.

    You make it sound as if being pro-Trump is the only normal position, and anything anti is problematic and biased.
     
    geoffw, 25th Jan, 2019
    #20
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