Stormwater easement on top of sewer line vs Pit and Pipe

Hi,
I am planning to do a knock down and build a duplex house and I need to some advice in terms of costs, effort and feasibility for a stormwater plan.

I am in the Parramatta Council area.

Option 1:
Is it possible to have a stormwater easement on my neighbour 1 property over a sewer line (highlighted in yellow)?
Neighbour 1 is owned by the housing commission and is willing to talk about stormwater easement as long as Sydney Water allows it. The tricky bit is it there sewer maintenance holes (black boxes) along where I want to have the stormwater easement. Sydney Water referred me to contact a Water Service Coordinator and I am awaiting for their feedback if it's doable.

Stormwater Easement Over Sewer Pipe by dammit126 posted 30th Sep, 2021 at 1:52 PM

Option 2:
A bit more complex but it avoids asking the neighbour for an easement. Lay a SW pipe from the lowest level on my property to where my current driveway.
I would need to build a pit (green box) and connect it the current public stormwater pipe (blue line) and then lay new pipe under the road to connect to the public stormwater pipe (green line).

It is about 22 metres new pipe that I would have to lay, and the pit would be at least 2+ metres deep.

Pit And Pipe Option by dammit126 posted 30th Sep, 2021 at 1:31 PM

Option 3:
Force neighbour 2 to give easement via section 88k which would involve lawyers and go into court.
We've approached neighbour 2, many times, at least 3-4 times in the last couple of years, and in every instance, he verbally refuses give an easement due to the advise of his lawyer friend. He also refuses to say his response in writing and won't even want to talk about compensation.

Can you advise which is the better/cheaper option?

Thank you.
dammit126

 

The Water Service Coordinator says it's not possible to have a stormwater easement on top of the sewer pipe.

 

Why are you taking the stormwater to the lowest point on your block? If you can avoid the boards sewer (only pass across it), it would more likely be permitted.

Option 2 would be the most expensive solution, depth of excavation, shoring, pit but would be the best solution if the owner of the stormwater will agree.

 

Hi @Scott No Mates , thanks for replying and apologies for the long delay. Didn't check the forum for a while.

This is the letter I got from Parramatta DA.

Letter by dammit126 posted 11th Oct, 2021 at 9:51 PM

Not sure what you mean by this.

Talked with someone from Parramatta Council development engineer help desk and they said that I can't do option 2. Council won't allow drain against the grade to the street pipe and council will not allow surcharge.

 

Sorry I accidentally deleted the album in propertychat.

Here are the uploads again.

Based on the original post
Option 1:

Pit And Pipe Option by dammit126 posted 11th Oct, 2021 at 11:14 PM

Option 2:

Waste Water Asset Patterson St Option 1-1 by dammit126 posted 11th Oct, 2021 at 11:15 PM

And the letter I got from Parramatta Council after submitted my Development Lodgement. Talking about storm water easement.

Letter by dammit126 posted 11th Oct, 2021 at 11:16 PM

 

think you might be referring to a "charged system" where the pressure of the water upstream pushes the water out, and the lower pipes will remain full of water in-between rain events.

i also envisage a pump out system would be declined.

but you could possibly have it running parallel and adjacent to the sewer line. Probably thru neighbour 2 property.

i'm guessing a 150-250mm discharge pipe, so an easement required would probably be 1 to 1.2 metres wide

what has your water service coordinator advised.

i think @Sackie has done a few of these and may be able offer some advice

 

I would get a good SW engineer who works in the area to investigate all your options. Then, have a prelodgment meeting with council,.take your engineer and basically nut out with councils engineers etc which option they prefer from best to least. Sometimes they have ideas you can't think of. I know your frustration as I needed a SW easement in PCC and my neighbour happened to be councils asset. A creek. Took 9 months to finally get it approved. And lots of Jack Daniels. Good luck.

 

Thanks @bmc and @Sackie .

@bmc, Yes, what you suggested was my option 3, and seems to be the only option after speaking to PCC development engineer yesterday. That neighbour is the one that has a family friend lawyer who advised him to flatly refused a stormwater easement and did not want to talk about compensation at all. The one I've approached many times throughout the years.

Thanks for reminding me that I need to follow up on my water service coordinator WSC if it neighbour 2 is possible as well.

Yeah I need a keg of vodka right now. So bloody painful, dammit!

@Sackie , did you go through a couple of SW engineers until you found a good one? I'm not sure how to identify a good SW engineer. So I've engaged about 3 engineer so far, although only 1 is based in Parramatta and the rest are based in other suburbs.

How did your SW engineer successfully argue your case? How much did your engineer charge you when he/she attended the pre-lodgement meeting? Did the engineer also go to the Lodgement Advisory Meeting (LAM)?

Also has anyone done a deferred commencement consent on a stormwater plan and also gone through the courts on section 88k to force a neighbour for an stormwater easement?


Thanks all.

 

I found my engineer from other DAs which had similar issues and got approved. I rang a few and chose one. My engineer basically worked with council to try and find the best solution. Gentle push here and there. Regarding forcing a neighbour I have no idea but I imagine it would be a long and expensive route. Have you offered your neighbours a decent fee for easement allowance?

 

Happens quite frequently at Parramatta Council.

 

Hi @Sackie yes, we tried several times, the neighbour did not want to hear anything about compensation for the easement.

Hi @Scott No Mates or anyone, would you know roughly how much is the legal cost when pursuing section 88k of the Conveyance Act?

Thanks All.

 

Possibly more efficient for a surveyor like @bmc to drive it rather than a lawyer.

 

Hi @bmc, would you be able to help or assist with a neighbour who refuses to grant a SW easement?

 

I recommend you consult with a law firm specialising in this area.

there are many aspects to this process, and if it's not done correctly, it could cost you $000 without a positive result.

If as a last resort you apply to the courts for an easement via section 88k,
you will need to satisfy the court that all reasonable steps have been taken to obtain an easement.
Win or lose be prepared to pay all associated costs.

I envisage you will need an updated Survey showing the site of the proposed easement and revised drainage design.

 

Hi @bmc
Thanks for your response.
Is there a way to get a survey done on the proposed easement if the neighbour refuses to co-operate?

thanks.

 

depends on the site. sometimes we can use remote laser measurement if access is denied.
usually we can obtain enough information to evaluate if the design is viable

 

Hi @bmc
Would a surveyor be able to use remote laser measurement if my neighbour's front yard looks like this without stepping onto his property? Would the survey be good enough for the stormwater engineer to use?

The easement would be along our shared green fence and 1 metre x 21 metre of it.
There is a bit of colorbond on the wired fence, would that be a problem when doing a survey?

Neighbour 2-1 by dammit126 posted 14th Oct, 2021 at 12:47 PM

Neighbour 2-2 by dammit126 posted 14th Oct, 2021 at 12:49 PM

Thanks.

 

down the right hand side of the fence ? - yes, should be able to if the grass is cut low.

we need the line of sight to be clear.

to state the obvious, if there's an obstruction - we cant see and the laser will be blocked.

small gaps, in-between mesh could be possible.

edit:
is the green colorbond fence in the background the rear boundary / drainage reserve ?
if so, it looks possible.

when your hydraulics engineer comes up with an alternative he will ask the surveyor for specific information.

 

Hi @bmc , yes the green colorbond fence in the background is drainage reserve, which is the rear boundary of neighbour 2.