Record Keeping (CGT / Estate) - Shares / LICs / ETFs ...

I watched this recently, brilliant movie and highly recommended.

 

Onedrive (Microsoft) and Dropbox are far more child friendly.

My big bug bear is Outlook for devices. You cant share or PDF print a email or an attachment and cant save to...any cloud store at all. So much for the Microsoft 365 whole of device world.

I found a workaround that you download an attachment then open the dload folder in another app and then it can be saved etc. You would think........

 

Occasionally you may have two or more PDFs on the same subject. For example, the application form for a Share Purchase Plan and the Transaction Advice once payment is made. It can get messy - especially if you're me!

To overcome this I have been using PDFSam to merge the documents. It's free and basic. I am sure there are other programs which will do the same thing and probably do even a better job.

 

Google Drive is the best!

 

Well that was a bugger of an exercise.

I've held STW for yonks but only since Sept last year did I think about retaining the Annual Tax Statements in the relevant folder along with the contract notes of the Buys.

However, I was only able to access the Tax Statements since 2012 from the share registry. I downloaded these that far back as up until AMIT was introduced, each distribution also included tax-deferred amounts and until 2017 the annual statements showed tax-deferred amounts for each distribution.

I was wondering about how to find the amounts for this element before 2012. Had a light-bulb moment and the accountancy firm I use indicated what I proposed would suffice. They were of a pretty strong view anyway it is advisable to always retain the Annual Tax Statement where the cost base is impacted by both tax-deferred amounts and AMIT.

Anyways, I used the search function in the ASX website and downloaded the distribution announcements as it shows the amount payable per unit and the component breakdown as a percentage. From that it is possible to calculate the dollar amount of the tax-deferred component, e.g. 1,000 x $0.32 distribution x 3.07%.

Best I can do in the light of my slackness in, first, not thinking and then, second, not scanning everything when I decided to go paperless.

Also applies in case a company changes share registry. Happened when ARG moved from Computershare to Boardroom. None of the information will then be readily available from Computershare and Boardroom allows access to a limited period. Any data before that I believe you have to contact the share registry. If DRPs are involved it's possibly pain time. I have no doubt the information will involve a fee.

Moral of story is to save everything even if you don't think you have to because you probably will be wrong on that point.

 

To extend the above pain, I used a spreadsheet, did the relevant calculations (with appropriate references to the distribution announcement,) printed to PDF, merged it with the distribution announcement PDF making sure the file name structure was consistent, i.e. yyyy_mm_dd Tax_Deferred_Calculations. It worked and slotted in with the dates of the Buy contracts. Best use of a miserably cold afternoon I suppose.

 

Website for STW (shareholder centre) may have distribution history
Registry...They have heaps of this info and get asked for this stuff often by deceased estates.

Former registries etc are also helpful. In rare cases they may charge a fee to resurrect old data (microfishe images etc) but we are talking 1980s and 90s. I have gone back to pre 1985 many times. Once we get to pre CGT dates we can stop there. Typical example is BHP, Coles Myer etc on that issue. And then you also need to look at reconstructed mergers and demergers and splits. Westfield can be a nightmare too.

 

Thank you for the suggestion @Paul@PFI.

I explored the share registry over last week and although it shows the payment history for STW holdings from 2008, the actual documents are not available - to me at least. Nor do the payments indicate a component breakdown apart from gross amount and franking.

As for the Tax Statements again while it indicates they are available from the FY 2010-2011, only those from the FY 2011-2012 are available for download. Probably the other details from 2001 or so are there - assuming STW has been with the same registry since then - but the info is not readily available to me.

Slightly frustrating as it may impact others of my family as I was once their authorised trustee when they received a bequest from a relative when they were minors (one was not even two years of age.) Guess where I placed a portion of the funds? While one has realised all the holdings once they were able to get their hands on the money, the others haven't and still add to their holdings.

There is one other slight twist for the unwary. If you initially hold shares under a SRN and subsequently transfer to a HIN, you will realise what will happen to the easily available history in the share registry. It will disappear from view.

A cautionary tale. In short, keep the bloody records.

 

Call the registry - They always have one staff member who job is to reconstuct and share old data. The info is available somewhere. They really do retain data forever or can refer you to who does hold it. Old Link Market data now with Computershare and changed HINs etc are easily solved. We see a bit of this with old Grace Bros and Farmers to New Coles Myer to Wesfarmers and then those reconstructed several times. Ditto old BHP to BHP Steel and Bluscope etc. They often share spreadsheets to help reconstruct old v new holdings too.

I have had to do this detective work many times. One saw me spend a week in the old Mitchell Library on its news archives. Another was impossible before the Westfield share registry popped some data into a spreadsheet they shared and bingo - I had the portfolio reconstructed excepting rounding variances in qty on hand.

Delised is a further wonderful resource for finding old / successive names

 

Thank you again @Paul@PFI. I do appreciate your input.

To be honest, I was attempting to avoid approaching Link for the information as they advised the maximum charge to retrieve the data for the period in question is $495 per entity - and there is more than one involved.

I know. I'm a tightwad.

 

Youch. I could understand a hourly rate. But its not like they are paying Stephen Hawkings to Albert Einstein to find the info. Since that David Tweed guy misused info they can charge a fee !

I have a client who had a paper share certificate for listed UK shares. They lost it beleived destroyed. Cost to replace (and its Computershare) ? $18,000 UK Pounds for shares worth $300,000 pounds. I thought its was a joke, a typo. Apparently not. The registry need title insurance in the event the original resurfaces. Thats what their insurer quoted, no markup (they had three quotes and $18K was the cheapest). Its still extortion IMO

 

Could be a bit of a one-off hit to the back pocket.

However, should the accountancy firm come back advising "Hmm, we've had a further think about this..." I may have to go down that path.

Then I will need to decide if I do it for those holdings, personal and in the SMSF, and could think "As you're gonna eventually get a bucket load of money as a freebie so anything above zero is a bonus, deal with it" but for their own holdings, as it was an error on my watch, it would not be fair to expect them to pay despite receiving the initial capital from a relative.

The trials and tribulations of a modern society.

Hope any random person reading this learns from my error. It ain't always about you so trash any concept of "I store my stuff in sharesight" or whatever vague system you use.

And I wonder whatever happened to David. Was approached by him a couple of times. Had a bit of fun making paper darts out of the rubbish he sent.

 

In these days of cheap (even free) cloud storage I take the view to keep as much as you can forever. And backup the backup. eg contracts, copy of trading summary, income details, tax statements, even down to chess statements and other correspondence.

Yes sharesight is not a primary record but a (good or bad) representation of it. Often people leave pdfs or account sumamries in the original location thinking they can retrive it later - Not always. A download in CSV is better than nothing. For a smsf I cant accept sharesight. ATO wont either. One of the first things I do when I see sharesight is check if its shows costbase adjustmnets and accrues ETF and trust income et so it reconciles with the tax statemenst. Not all do. Same with some broker info eg Commsec ranges from poor to excellent.

Sharesight now has a much better competitor. BGL have closed beta released (to some accountants) SimpleInvest 360 which is a cloud based version of its very very smart AI based super fund software for investors. It basically runs from data feeds to anything and is highly intelligent. It even cross checks to registries etc. And does tax reporting etc. It even machine reads paper contracts, div notes and more. And all docs can be attached in the software but that comes with risks of loss if you unsubscribe one day.

Sorry Satayking it doesnt go backwards past the HIN you have

 

Appreciate the commiserations @Paul@PFI. Undeserved though given the hole I dug for myself.

Had one small break after reviewing all my personal records. By pure good fortune the 2011-2012 Annual Tax Statement from STW actually displays my full HIN. In subsequent years, it's the now normal X*****NNNN. So that means those statements held (hopefully) by my brood would be the same which means the SRN will be known and they will be able to request the information should they want to chase it up. I'll pay for the cost obviously. A couple of longish emails to draft tonight followed by some phone calls tomorrow I feel.

It's the only share holding where there is a gap which is most annoying but not insurmountable.

And a not so funny story about records. If you must deal with a deceased estate better not DIY unless you are very, very good.

Conversation quite a few months ago with a former colleague who was dealing with his Dad's affairs. Discovered he had some shares but no records of the transactions (when bought, etc) could be found. Thought he'd simply get a list from the share registry, look up the date when the events occurred and use the closing price for the cost-base.

Er, no, I don't think so. The transaction date is not the date of the contract (T+2 or even T+3, T+5 may apply) and then there is brokerage. In fact, I understand they had been held for many, many years. So many years that does anyone bar me remember the days when Stamp Duty applied to share buys and sells?

There was a silent groan and a mention of handing the lot over to a professional

Such fun - not.

 

I have had to reconstruct a portfolio costbase accrued over decades several times. Its messy but some basic info can allow base assumptions to be made. Brokerage and yes the old duty on off-market transfers wont likely be that material on a per share basis and based on historical prices back in 1990 etc. Its postage stamp stuff. The CGT issue is the biggie. But recognition of pre-CGT is the gold. You want to get that bit right. In its worst case I have even used newspaper archive data (Mitchell Library microfische) to determine approx market values on the date shares were acquired. I did have a client handwritten ledger with all changed qtys and dates recorded. No prices !! . Have also had clients bring filing cabinets of paperwork and plead for help. There are some shortcuts you can take. Like working backwards from what is known to be on hand. Ignore the rest but keep it.

The very worst share in the world to reconstruct was Westfield. It went from a ordinary share to splits and demergers and reconstructions and new entities. Its probably changed ten times. But....The registry have a series of excel spreadsheets to assist. I managed to get it to within a rounding variance. A few hours effort for what seemed impossible.

There are also books published for former shares ! Wolters Kluwer (CCH) have continually published a book called the annual dividend book since approx 1988 ? I cant remmeber who they bought out who originally published his. It was always on the shelf of every accountant until computers took over. Copies in the NSW State Library and the CPA Library - Maybe CA library too. Many large firms have copies going back the whole way. It includes corporate actions, dates and more. A very very costly and slow process. Had to do that in the above case as the portfolio was approx $5m and the CGT could have been a few million if we didnt do the work.
Yahoo Finance has a good historical database of trade prices (daily) too. Using Delisted you can find old / new ASX codes and use that to find long gone company trade prices. Changed names even. Reconstructions and more.

If the effort is diligent the ATO would likely find you have done your best. Whether you use the exact trade value or use one a few days either side wont be that important.

Warning - These matters can be really really costly. Tens of thousands of dollars, But if its pre-CGT you can save a mint. I was able to trace $1m+ of Westpac shares back to the Advance Bank float . For a time they were National Mutual Royal Bank (remember United Permanent) and then StGeorge and finally ended up as Westpac. Date of original issue was July 1985.....Pre-CGT !! One call to the current registry and they searched the original float docs and there they were. Cost was $100 or so to confirm that and obtain a copy. Tax saving was half a million on that parcel alone.

 

Yes, SGB payment of $2.10 for each Advance share, 20c ff divvy from Advance and share conversion of 0.625 for each Advance share. The good ol' days.

 

All good. Phew. Issues surrounding the SI(S) Act and associated regulations were also crossing my mind over the last few months.

 

The folders for the share holdings in the SMSF were getting messy given the fund has sold a few over the years (MLT, NAB, etc.) In view of that I created another sub-folder for the SMSF and personal holdings for these sales and moved all the relevant documents, by ASX Code, into that sub-folder. Google Drive updated automatically. Any external sources I use for backup and storage, such as NAS, USB, Hard Disks,etc, were also reorganised to reflect the folder structure.

Makes it easier - for me at least. As usual with these matters, care needs to be taken when doing this as it is easy to get it wrong.

 

For share sales I move all related doco to my annual tax folder for the relevant entity given that once sold the only reason for keeping the records is in case ATO queries the CG in that year.

Put another way my thought is that share folders are only for "current" holdings. Anything sold is a tax event for that year so the annual tax folder is where it belongs. After the mandatory holding period (5 years in most cases) it can be deleted for good.

 

yes, this is how our records are organised.