DA Refused! - City of Sydney Council

Hi all,

Just a brief background...

I submitted plans to partially demolish and extend an existing terrace house. The plans were submitted early July and it took council 6 months to consider and respond with a refusal!
Within these 6 months we did receive a RFI (Request for information) from council which result in my architects having a meeting with the relevant councillors discussing how we can proceed with the application.

We made major changes to the initial design and after 4 months of waiting we had minimal communication from council and then a refusal.

I'm unsure of how to proceed but my architect has recommended that I go and raise this case to Land Environment Court (LEC) but I am unaware of the associated costs? Would anyone here know what options I have to appeal this?

Cheers!

 

Paging @Meristone

 

What was the Council reasoning ? Their decision should address each area where compliance was not met.

A town planner may be more useful and expert at addressing reasons. ie traffic, roadway, noise.

 

I have had a poor experience with architects in the past where they don't respect the Council's position, push too far and end up with a refusal. Not necessarily what may be happening here but going to LEC will end up with more fees for them and risk/delays for you, and it doesn't sound like its worth a prolonged fight.

In my first DA I trusted the architects, went with their advice, paid all the consultant bills, sat back and waited....I've since learnt my lesson.

I would recommend you understand your DA - where was it non-compliant? What were council's biggest concerns? Were they addressed in the changes? Or hire a planner to help you understand. Let me know if you'd like a recommendation. City of Sydney have not been too bad in my DA dealings with them.

And it may cost you less stress and money in the long run to get new architects.

 

@Elvis sorry to hear about your issues but this is a classic example of why you should not get an architect to pretend to be a planner.

Terrace alts & ads in COS are usually very black and white. Are you demolishing significant fabric of the terrace? If so do you have structural issues? If not there's no reason to do so and it won't be supported.

Regarding the addition, is the rear building line going beyond the others in the row? If it is a first floor addition are you going beyond the others in the row? Is there not any precedence in the row? Is the roof form not sympathetic to the others in the row? Do the dormer windows not comply with the provisions of the DCP? If you answered yes to any of the above the DA will not be supported.

I cannot reiterate this enough...when it comes to project management of your DA, don't just assume the ball is always in Council's court. It's a game of ping pong. A general tip is to call at key stages of the assessment and check up on it (i.e - when it comes off notification, 2 weeks after that after planner has made a preliminary assessment etc). Alarm bells were ringing when they asked for additional info/amendments. You need to stay on top of it because it's easier to address any issues before they refuse it.

Not all hope is lost, I'm not sure what the issues are but if a small amendment can resolve it, you can amend and lodge an 82a review. If you would like to share more of the specifics of your refusal for some specific advice, feel free to PM me.

Good luck

 

Not really sure the architect bashing is justified. Was it the OP's instruction to try and push the limit of council planning controls? It seems as though direction was taken from the council meeting in which council would have detailed likely approved design outcomes moving forward. If the design changes were completed based on advice from council and refusal was subsequently given then there is definitely a case to be put to LEC. If not already engaged I suggest a town planner provide advice based on the design. This will highlight if the design satisfies planning outcomes and if you are likely to have a positive outcome with LEC.

Was the refusal due to neighbour objections? Was there an IHAP meeting?

 

Do you know if you still have time to lodge a section 82A appeal to council? These applications are cheaper than a normal DA process, but there is a short timeframe for the determination of the review, so you need to act quickly to allow time for council’s reassessment. In these situations, I would also recommend amending the design to ensure that all matters listed in the refusal document are addressed before lodging the appeal - that’s also valid if you decide to raise the case to the Land Environment Court.

I agree with RenegadeDom’s comment about unjustified architect bashing. It’s important to keep in mind that in any market there are good and bad professionals, and generic comments criticizing an entire category may sound offensive to many decent professionals who make an effort to provide the best services to their clients.

Many architects are trained in town planning matters, and most experienced architects should have the knowledge to deal with council in simpler projects. However, good professional practice requires the architect to provide the correct advice to the client and recommend the engagement of specialist consultants such as town planners when the matter goes beyond their expertise.

I know how frustrating a DA refusal can be and hope you can revert this situation. Good luck!

 

I think some of the problems stem from clients wanting the architect to take on matters that they are not that comfortable with just to save having to engage a TP.

Generally architects are happiest focusing on their area of expertise and are content to offload the TP work so they can focus on design work rather that battling an incompetent & illogical council. More and more councils are just command and control box tickers rather than enablers.

 

I don't even choose a tile without my town planner.

 

Doea your wife know about that?

 

Maybe his wife is a town planner...

 

What..are ya crazy..

 

@OP

A good Architect should know the LEP and DCP very well, at times even better than a planner.

My question is what were this architect's credentials that you hired him for this particular project. and the other question is was he aware from the start that you are playing with non-compliance?

Having said that local government across the board in most areas in Sydney are in utter shambles.

Information you have provided isn't enough to determine the best way to deal with this.

I would suggest you first find out the main reasons why they refused you. They will probably send you a letter with a large number of reasons but there will usually be a few of them that are the most important.

Then depending on how important it is for you to get this project approved you can take this to an Ihap panel for a review but get your facts right first and hire the right people, be it architect or planner who have dealt with similar issues in this particular area before.

The court option can be costly again depending on what you are trying to do, you are looking at anywhere from 15k+.

 

I am astonished that a Town Planner would bag Architects.

In my 40 years of experience I have known many Architects & a few Town Planners. Every Architect I have ever met could run rings round the Town Planners.

I also have submitted a DA for some minor adds & alts to a terrace house in Redfern.
Its just a new kitchen & bathroom, a clean up of the facade and a rebuilt backyard studio.

Council started by trying to sue me for $1000 a week for non compliance with the Boarding House Code.

It took 6 months to convince Council that they did not have a legal leg to stand on.

Then they tried to sue me for 'illegal building work'. They said a neighbour had complained. But I knew none had. Ripping out rancid polypropylene carpet is not illegal. I expect Council will eventually withdraw.

They refused to accept my initial application as it did not come with a certificate of compliance with the Code for Apartment Blocks.

After my second attempt at submission Council wrote asking that I withdraw the application. On the basis that I have not presented to the Council Officers a range of 'options' nor have I given any reasons for making the proposed alterations.

If you examine in detail the mass of contradictory 'Guidelines' and 'Regulations' that Council Officers have available to pick and choose from, you will quickly realise that no DA ever really complies with all of their variously interpreted regulations.

$15 000 sounds cheap to me for the legal costs of going to the Land & Environment Court.

 

@Peter WARNER ,
did you end up winning the case in the court?

 

Council withdrew their legal action for non compliance with regulations that do not apply, about a week before the case was listed. That means I have to pay my own legals and cannot claim from Council. Very clever.

Council still insist that I am doing 'illegal building work'. But have decided not to pursue the matter. A slap on the wrist for removing a urine and blood stained carpet, rolling up the discarded sharps and putting stashes of white powder down the loo.

 

Council withdrew their case that I had not complied with regulations that are not applicable about a week before the case was listed. That means I have to pay my own legals. Very clever.

Council have not withdrawn their claim that I have performed 'illegal building work', but have decided to take no action on the matter. So that is a slap on the wrist for rolling up a blood and urine stained carpet, disposing of the used syringes and flushing some white powder down the loo.

We did have an 'On Site' meeting. I brought the President of the Heritage Council to represent my interests ($480 per hour min 8 hours). That just got Council Officers even more upset.

Council have asked me to withdraw my application. Being an application to sparkle up the joint with a new kitchen and bathroom, I just don't want to live in a dump.

I have asked Council to withdraw their report that asserts that every single part of this worn out terrace is so precious that for reasons of historical significance, I am not allowed to touch it.

My initial 'Heritage Impact Statement' done by me and submitted with my application listed every thing on the place built before WWI. The result of our 'On Site 'meeting is that I must now assess the historical significance of every item on the premises.

So I now have over 300 pages of photos and gumph that assesses every door hinge, every tap, every light switch, every crack, every tile, even the letterbox gets a page. It gets two!

My neighbour says I am stupid. I should have done what he did. Do the work illegally and tell no one.

He is right !

 

You know that they have access to aerial photos? If you demolish and extend it might be a bit obvious.

I find it a bit hard to believe that they won’t let you install a new kitchen if you don’t alter the structure...

Do you mean that they have ordered you to retain every cupboard and hinge etc?

 

Whoa, that is so extreme... :-o
Hopefully all is good for you now @Peter WARNER

 

Hi Elvis,

I'm a planner who has lodged numerous applications with City of Sydney Council. In my experience I've found this council to be great to work with.

Lodging a merit appeal at the Land & Environment Court will be costly, even if your matter is resolved at the conciliation conference stage. Your refusal Notice of Determination will likely provide you with a 'review of determination' appeal avenue which you can apply for as an alternative to court. Often this is the cheapest and fastest way to gain approval (though amendments to your design to satisfy council to address the reasons for refusal may be required to some extent).

I would recommend you engage a planner to review the reasons for refusal to determine which appeal avenue would be more suitable. You can email the refusal to me at [email protected] and I can provide you with some free advice.