COVID-19: Australia vs the rest of the world

Discussion in 'COVID-19' started by MTR, 28th Jul, 2020.

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  1. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    When in doubt, read the manual

    Countries beating Covid-19 — EndCoronavirus.org
    The comments at the end regarding lockdowns are interesting.
     
  2. willair

    willair Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Thanks for the link,after reading that last part a few times it puts a balanced optimism in a different way.
     
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  3. kierank

    kierank Well-Known Member

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    I love this one:

    “A short, hard lockdown saves both the economy and the health of the population. If the lockdown is not doing the job very well, and new cases will not slow down, the strategy would be to strengthen the lockdown, rather than lift it.“​
    I can name a few national leaders who never found/took a long time to find “the manual”.

    Who would have thought this (from same link) :rolleyes::

    “... having economic interruptions which last for several weeks is a historically validated response strategy that is as old as history.“​
     
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  4. Marg4000

    Marg4000 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt anyone with dead or seriously ill relatives from this virus will agree with you.
     
  5. TMNT

    TMNT Well-Known Member

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    we look kinda silly with our graph shape,

    Australia, Croatia, Japan, Serbia

    are the only other countries with clear higher second peaks
     
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  6. kierank

    kierank Well-Known Member

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    That is why “all lives matter” as I believe there is a golden age on the other side.

    To me, we are in the midst of a world war, the corona war.

    In WW1, lots of people were killed (many were treated as canon fodder), lots of people were seriously injured, governments went into huge debts, ... but it was followed by a golden age called the Roaring 20’s.

    In WW2, lots of people were killed, lots of people were seriously injured, governments went into huge debts (it took the UK 55 years to repay theirs), ... but it was followed a golden age enjoyed by baby boomers like me.

    In the corona war, lots of people are dying (unfortunately some countries are treating their citizens as “canon fodder”, lots of people are being seriously injured (we don’t fully understand the long term effects of catching this disease), governments are racking up huge debts providing financial support (which I totally agree with), ... and I believe this “war“ will also be followed a golden age.

    That is why it hugely important for governments to take COVID seriously and stop the spread. I don’t understand why some governments took the “canon fodder“ approach in this day and age.

    In early March, my wife and I made a pact that we would get to the other side together. We self-isolated before COVID was termed a pandemic, we socially distance and wear masks when not at home, ...

    I know we have already enjoyed one golden age but I believe we have to opportunity to enjoy a second one. How lucky are we!!! We just need to stay COVID free.

    It is disappointing that not all of my fellow humans aren’t on the same page :(.
     
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  7. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    Some numbers for you.

    I've expanded my stats to include all countries with more than 15,000 cases - which now includes Australia. There are 73 countries with more than 15,000 cases.

    From this list of 73 countries, we are the 41st largest by population.

    The IMF and the World Bank lists Australia as the 14th largest country by GDP, the United Nations rank us as #13 in the world.

    On a GDP per capita basis, the IMF and UN ranks us at #10 and the the World Bank at #12.

    We are currently ranked #72 in the world for overall number of infections (15,304) and #66 in the world for confirmed deaths (167).

    Adjusted for population, we are #64 for infection rate (cases per head of population) at 0.06% (597 infections per million population), and #63 for death rate (deaths per head of population) at 6.5 deaths per million population.

    I'd say we're doing pretty well - especially compared to our "peers" in terms of GDP - only South Korea is ranked higher in GDP than us, but has fewer cases. On a cases per head of population basis, nobody lower than us is higher in GDP per capita and on a deaths per head of population basis, only Singapore has a lower death rate but is higher in GDP per capital than us (but only according to the IMF and World Bank).

    However, that's not what these charts are trying to show - they are showing a very simplistic measure of the number of new cases per day and using that to rank countries who are getting things under control. They don't adjust for population - they are only comparing raw numbers.

    Their metrics are based on an average of the daily new cases over the last 7 days. So in Australia, we have had (counting backwards): 368, 532, 453, 355, 293, 408, 466 with an average of 410 new cases per day in the last 7 days.

    Now if they were simply comparing the average number of new cases per day and ranking countries based on that - I think that's a reasonable approach - but I think there is something else happening in their rankings too - perhaps a rate of change measure?

    I question why France at 836 new cases per day, Germany with 561 new cases per day, Pakistan with 1147 new cases per day and the UK with 666 new cases per day all get yellow status, while Australia with only 410 new cases per day gets red?

    Yes, our curve is increasing, but it's from a very low base compared to the other countries listed.

    Their ranking classifies us a "need to take action" to which I would agree - and I believe we are taking action, with Victoria back in lockdown and very active contact tracing nation-wide.

    So I don't think there is anything particularly remarkable about their charts - I disagree with the "red" status for Australia based on the fact that many other countries in a far worse position than us are currently getting "yellow" status - but otherwise, I say, fair enough.

    It's an interesting measure too - average recent cases per day gives a better indication of the current status than the overall numbers that I quote - which is why I've been including changes in ranking, to show relative movements in cases and deaths compared to other countries.

    I might see if I can automate the process of crunching numbers to generate some stats that include a ranking of recent cases per day - it would be far too time consuming to do it by hand.
     
    Last edited: 29th Jul, 2020
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  8. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    "Winning" is not really the right term - this is not a competition and we are all affected by this tragedy.

    However, the numbers I have posted above clearly do show that Australia's response really has been one of the best in the world (especially amongst developed nations who you would expect to do well - but haven't) - even with the recent outbreak in Victoria.
     
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  9. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    The information seems to be accurate - but their interpretation of it is a little flawed in my opinion.
     
  10. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Mainly because of an integral mindset shift for many about what is actually important - both in work and family life ... what is possible (ie, working from home) ... what jobs actually make a difference (redefines essential services) ... what is not really required (skim latte caramel double shot) ... a new intolerance for stupidity ... and a getting back to what really matters (access to nature)
     
    Last edited: 29th Jul, 2020
  11. kierank

    kierank Well-Known Member

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    Here! Here!!
     
  12. Traveller99

    Traveller99 Well-Known Member

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    We have never eradicated a coronavirus nor found a vaccine. We have only learned to live with them and manage them. Like the current COVID, they mutate, adapt and change frequently, meaning a cure now is not a cure in the future.
     
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  13. TMNT

    TMNT Well-Known Member

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    Taking a step back and seeing things objectively, or trying to

    we started our covid approach fairly early, and it was on the stricter side (minus the masks)
    and yet we have made a few minor mistakes and yet we are in a poo poo situation

    many other countries were far more lax than us and have it under control,

    It seems rather unfair/unlucky that we are in the current situation looking at it from a average person
     
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  14. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    Are we? We've seen a recent upswing in one part of the country, which has taken a few weeks to get under control. I'd suggest that we'll be back at very low numbers again within 4-6 weeks, provided that people get the message and do the right thing.

    The fact that we've largely managed to keep this largely isolated to Victoria - with only a few related cases appearing in NSW, is a good thing. We just need to keep doing the right thing and the numbers will drop again.

    I don't know of any country who was "more lax than us" and now has it "under control" ? Some may be seeing fewer daily new cases right now (given we're at or near our peak for the current outbreak) - but most have been seeing consistently much higher cases than we have on a daily basis for quite some time now.
     
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  15. TMNT

    TMNT Well-Known Member

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    thailand, vietnam got in early but I dont think they did anything super amazing, laos,
    just pulling out a few random countries that I can recalllooking at graphs recently vs their policies
    I dont particularly feel that confident we have it under control, and Im not talking about these Karens or BLM protests either, I dont think a few karens and one protest is going to make much difference,
    we are at stage 3-4 restrictions and our second wave is much more severe than the first,
    that being said todays figures in vic seem a step in the right direction,
    a lot of opinions that whats happeneing in VIC is only a matter of time to happen in NSW and QLD.............
    my gut is that we are at a delicate point where it could go either way
     
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  16. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    The Logan case where a teacher was unaware she had Covid for a week before being diagnosed, just might be the start of Queensland being in trouble.
     
  17. MTR

    MTR Well-Known Member

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    I think It could go either way too

    side issue -
    What is the sentiment of Melbournians towards the Premier? If this blows out again do you think he will be asked to resign?? Curious as I see some business leaders requesting this now???
     
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  18. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    I think that's more a reflection on how effective our first lockdown was (and how lucky we were) rather than on how badly we're doing now.

    Yes, these countries seem to have done very well. I wasn't considering some of these Asian countries when I made my statement.

    However, I am just a little sceptical about their numbers because I just don't think they are testing enough.
    • Thailand have performed 696,656 tests.
    • Vietnam have performed 261,004 tests.
    • Laos have performed 26,386 tests.
    • Australia have performed 4,032,061 tests.
    I don't think those Asian countries actually have a clear understanding about the rates of infection in their own countries.

    What I suspect is happening is that the virus has spread rapidly through the country - but most people simply aren't being affected badly by it and so it's treated as just a minor illness.

    Let's look at the demographics - what percentage of the population is over the age of 65?:
    • Thailand: 11.0%
    • Vietnam: 6.4%
    • Laos: 4.0%
    • Australia: 16.4%
    With so few people above the age of 65 years, the number of extremely vulnerable people is very small.

    Let's also look at life expectancy:
    • Thailand: 76.7 years
    • Vietnam: 75.2 years
    • Laos: 67.3 years
    • Australia: 82.5 years
    In Laos you would generally expect people to die in their late 60s, which corresponds with the age at which people start to become very vulnerable to COVID-19 ... so in Laos if someone dies in their late 60s from COVID-19, it is wholely unremarkable given that most people die around that age anyway.

    Vietnam and Thailand have quite a bit longer life expectancy - but still, it's not unusual for people to die in their 70s anyway - so if older people are dying from COVID-19, it's probably not considered unusual and so these deaths are possibly not being considered as related to COVID-19?

    I'd also assume that in those Asian countries, the majority of elderly people live with their family and not in aged care facilities? Given the pattern we've seen of very high death rates from aged care facilities in western countries - I'd suggest this is working strongly in their favour.

    If 100 older people die in their homes in these countries because of the virus it is possibly not considered unusual, nor reported or tested for - while if 100 people in Australia die in aged care facilities, then we not only know about it (because we would have tested them in the facility), but it also becomes a matter of media attention because it is unusual.

    In Australia, we have a substantially higher percentage of our population in those older age groups, who are also more vulnerable - and we also have a testing regime that is far more extensive and so we have a much better understanding of exactly how many cases we have and the numbers of people who have died because of COVID-19.

    A large part of all of this is supposition on my part - but I think if you are going to make comparisons, you do need to consider all of the data. The biggest difficulty in making accurate comparisons is the different rates and approaches to testing in countries around the world.
     
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  19. PropertyBooster

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  20. MWI

    MWI Well-Known Member

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    ....or relatives currently in self isolation not knowing what next 14 days will mean being exposed to covid-19 case?
    But do agree in greater context of things, some just needed a wake up call in this world, no one is invincible and will live for ever?
    Perhaps thinking more on what 'humanity' means to each one of us?
     

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