Corner site subdivision zoning loophole - Como

If you were unsure on whether a corner block met the requirements above who would you contact to get the tick of approval or non approval?

 

The policy is fairly clear. Is there something in particular you're unsure about?

WAPC is the relevant authority of your seeking clarification. They tend to be very conservative and guarded in giving advice so you have to be clear what you're asking, under what policy/clause, and how you frame your questions

 

You could seek the advice of a town planner or surveyor if you were unsure about interpretation of the guidelines.
You can call WAPC as @Angad Singh says but they generally never give a definite answer as he said. You need to ask questions about the policy not about a site per se generally if you want the most amount of information.

 

Thanks, might try work through it on here

So basically can any corner block over 700sqm be subdivided into 2 with R20 zoning if each block is 350sqm + ?

Under 4.2.4 Policy
- The minimum lot size variation only applies to one lot in the subdivision. (Which means only one lot can be 350sqm and the other can be ?) - This doesnt add up to the 370 sqm x 2 lots for the Macdonald Avenue, Padbury example as both are below the average lot size?

- The variation reduces the area of that one lot by no more than five per cent of the minimum lot size specified in Table 1 or elsewhere in the R-Codes (My understanding of this is that you can be within 5% of the minimum area for one lot. ie 333sqm for R20 ?)

- The variation in the area of that one lot reduces the average lot size of the overall subdivision by no more than five per cent of the average lot size specified in Table 1 or elsewhere in the R-Codes. (My understanding is that you need to be within 5% of the average of 450sqm for R20 ie average of 427.5 sqm between the 2 lots ?)

- In considering lot size and frontage variations, the WAPC will give regard to the recommendations of the local government. (So essentially you could pay based on subdivision ability only to get knocked back by local council ? no matter what WAPC says, who has the power? Who gets last say?)

Variations to average lot size greater than five per cent criteria
• In addition to the preceding criteria, any average lot size variation greater than five per cent meets all of the following criteria: (Above)

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These are my concerns and my understanding of these. Maybe im looking at the wrong spot? Sorry if this is dumb just my take on the reference from policy 4.2.4

 

You're getting your terminology mixed up I think.

Your R20 700sqm example relies on a variation to the average lot size remember, not a variation to the minimum lot size (which is 350sqm at R20 on the normal table already).

 

@property world

Ahh, I see where you are confused. This is great, and it's awesome you are taking the time to learn and understand how this works.

Think of it like this, there are two policy provisions relevant to lot size variations:

1) variations to the minimum and average lot sizes by less than 5% of the deemed to comply requirements
- in these instances, it is generally for one lot within the development, and it must not alter the average by more than 5%. This is the one that most blocks need to use if they are seeking variations.

2) variations to average lot sizes greater than 5% of the deemed to comply requirements
-this is only under specific circumstances (two road frontages with different names, not regional or main roads etc). Corner blocks use this one if they are seeking a variation greater than 5%. If they are not seeking a variation greater than 5%, then they can use the above one.

Other than that, yes you are correct that you can vary by 5%, meaning that a 333m2 could be permissible in an R20 coded zone. You are also correct about the average lot size would be no less than 427m2.

Now, with subdivisions, WAPC has the power and gets the final say. They often ignore advice from councils, on this matter, and they are generally much more supportive of developments. The only circumstance this would not apply is if the council has a specific provision in their scheme or another local planning policy in place.

Great post and great questions!

Cheers,
Angad

 

Thanks appreciate another great response and thanks for explaining some of my concerns

'Greater than 5% variation' how much variation is possible?

Two Street frontages. What determines a street frontage? If your a corner block and have two different street names is that automatically ticking of that box with two street frontages?

The place im looking at has a fence down one of the street names. So is this a frontage?

 

This is a variation to the average lot size. So really its up (or down) to the minimum lot size.

 

Yes that would be a frontage IF the boundary is wide enough to meet the rcodes frontage requirements when you carve it up. There would be some further information in the WAPC document about what street frontages are.

The greater than 5% variation is only on the average portion so you still have to meet the minimum portion, ie for R20 you still need to be greater than 350 each block

 

1) You can vary the average as much as you like, provided you meet the criteria. You essentially become limited by minimum lot size. The intent behind this is that the average lot size is designed to capture allowances for common property (such as driveways). When you have multiple frontages, you do need common property because each home has its own driveway.

2) A street frontage is essentially the ability to provide the primary entry and vehicular access directly off the street. Obviously, the dwelling would also need to be compliant and in line with orderly planning. The primary intent of this provision is to facilitate more development where the dwellings would be in line with what you would expect to see in the area. If you have two different street names then its pretty much automatic provided they are not regional roads or a few of the other types of streets excluded. Also, I can tell you that I have used this provision on a corner lot with the same street name- so apply a bit of common sense and think whether your outcome will be a good one or not.

3) If the place has a fence down the street then you have to see if you will be allowed to have a cross over and your primary entry (front door) orientated towards that street. Generally, this comes down to the traffic and nature of the road, footpaths, trees, etc. This one you would need to assess on a case by case basis.

4) On a separate note, going to the minimum lot size is not always a good thing, particularly in this market. Your house size is essentially limited by the "site coverage" which includes a proportionate share of common property. In R20 developments with 450m2 average lot size, your houses will be approx 225m2. If you drop that down to 350m2, then it drops down to 175m2. You have to be really careful with design and area selection to make sure that you are still bringing high-quality products to the market

Cheers,
Angad

 

Im trying to get a survey title to see dimension of the lot from REA

I would be trying to make one 350sqm and the other would then be 430sqm

 

You should be able to see these using the local govt mapping database. Most councils use Intramap but a few use another platform.
With most you can turn on lot dimensions and also use the measuring tools to somewhat accurately measure distances and area. Depending on the angle of the satellite when it took the photo it can be a little out but it can give you indication whether you should get in your car and bother going for a drive to hand measure

 

I am seeing some keyboard warriors here giving out "inaccurate" information regarding 5% variations. Stop taking advice from people with very little "real experience" on this matter and call your local land surveying firm for proper advice. Being senior staff of perths best surveying firms who complete over 150 subdivisions per year, i can tell you following advice from "forum experts" can go very wrong as we have seen it happen.

Get your advice directly from surveying experts. Just because you have done 2 or 3 subdivisions does not qualify you to give advice on these forums.

 

What was inaccurate here?

Apparently you have the capacity to assist here. Are you willing to though?

 

Welcome aboard @Calum McNealy . We do have another surveyor that also gives some input but the more the merrier.
A surveyor or WAPC directly can be the most accurate source - there is no doubt on that - I don't think any of us are claiming to be experts and members give opinions not advice.
For our own learning here would you be able to share what you felt was inaccurate?

 

Look my post may have come across a bit blunt which I apologise for.

Basically we had a guy we knew from the past that resurfaced recently looking for subdivision in information. He had purchased land on advice from a real estate agent for an R20 block. Turns out his expert mate was wrong and his R20 block had only 835m2. Now he has a mortgage for over $700k on a block he can't subdivide which was the whole reason he bought it. I had the pain of explaining this to him!

Another example was a person we dealt with installing 2 new crossovers, fencing and retaining for 2 new green title blocks costing upwards of $17k based on advice from another real estate agent and friend who had subdivided. This woman did NOT need to do any of this based on L.Gov requirements for her particular approval..

Another case was a person who was on one of these forums reading ended up spending over $20k on earthworks prior to engaging us to do pegging and clearances. Did they have to do any of this to get clearances & Titles.... NO (Bad Info)

While I see and appreciate what everyone is doing and saying, I see it as very risky taking advice unless under the direct guidance of a surveyor if your a rookie developer.

As for the 5% rule, only experience with this type of subdivision can qualify you to really speak on it and after doing over 90 of them over the past few years since (2.2) came into effect, we have seen the highs and lows of what can happen in different situations and possible workarounds to make the impossible - possible. That's where I will leave that for now.

Anyone can read from a pdf and then advise others. Putting every single consideration into action after this point and jeeping the project cost effective is where the challenges are. Only experience over volume projects qualifies as good advice and only land surveyors in my mind have this type of knowledge and experience.

No offence meant to any of the knowledgeable people here.

 

@Calum McNealy the number of people that don't check information provided by REAs is astounding - as to zoning, potential and matters that affect the property such as sewer, power easements etc. It truly is scary the lack of due diligence done for such an expensive purchase - I swear some people investigate their choice of phone more than an property purchase some days.

I hope you stick around and help us out here.

 

@Calum McNealy welcome aboard. Do drop by when you have the time. There will be no shortage of potential leads from the forum.

 

Thank you but people are in good hands here with you guys already. If anyone has a question I can try help out and am happy to weigh in on Corner block 5% projects prior to anyone purchasing to point out what I see as "budget blowing" decisions potentially. The choice between green title and survey strata on c.block subdivisions is the critical thing and you must view and consider locations of power poles / street trees, future crossovers, side entry pits (Drainage) and above all sewer mains. This needs to be investigated above everything else when you view a property. Thanks

 

Happy to check for you