Climate Change Performance Indicator

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Lizzie, 20th Dec, 2019.

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  1. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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  2. gman65

    gman65 Well-Known Member

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    If we banned coal exports, we could make a measurable difference to world emissions. May well crash our economy though.
     
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  3. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    That's why it's all about "transition" ... not just for physical power, but for the basis of the economy.
     
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  4. Indifference

    Indifference Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear... where to start ....

    The CCPI is a great tool for the unwashed.... sigh.
    Per capiita metrics hide net consumption of grossly overpopulated countries & doesn't account for geographical differences & challenges.

    Additionally, some economies are based on supply to other countries which causes a rise in energy consumption on one hand but a net benefit to the other...

    If only this debate could be had without bias & one sided agendas trying to convince everyone this is a black & white issue. It isn't. ...... sigh.... rant over.
     
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  5. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    How, Any links for support?

    Just because we don't export good coal doesn't mean **** coal won't be burned instead.
     
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  6. gman65

    gman65 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.rba.gov.au/publications...anging-global-market-for-australian-coal.html

    We export about 75% of our thermal coal, and we are the 4th highest producer of coal worldwide, and make up 32% of global exports. This is a significant number. Because it must be easier / cheaper to buy Australian coal than mining it locally, I'm guessing this is why there is such a demand, and we export so much.

    Coal in Australia - Wikipedia

    If we significantly reduced export volume of thermal coal (effectively taking out 10-30% of the worldwide supply), prices worldwide would likely rise significantly in the short to medium term. Countries would be have to increase production / open more mines (if possible - the cheap/easy stuff is already being mined) to meet demand, all of which are significant capital expenses, which get reflected in the global coal price.

    With the price of renewables dropping all the time, even in places such as China.. It just would not make sense to try and open more coal fired power stations, with a background of increasing price of coal.. when power demands can be more cheaply met by switching to low emission generation.
     
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  7. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    The coal replacement already exists ... just needs investment .. refer my "exciting sustainable developments" thread
     
  8. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    Its quality, not easier/cheaper why China etc buy Australian coal, we are an old continent, our coal is much better than the brown coal coming out of China/Indonesia
     
  9. Indifference

    Indifference Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh, there is more than one use for coal....

    Coal is not just used for power stations (thermal)
    Coal is also required for metallurgical use (coking)

    There is an alternative steel production method, the Electric Arc Furnace, that doesn't use coal but requires a lot of electricity. Ohh the irony.....
     
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  10. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    No irony - the technology exists but simply needs further investment - perhaps you should have a wander through the "exciting sustainable developments" thread :)

    "The breakthrough means that, for the first time, concentrated solar energy can be used to create the extreme heat required to make cement, steel, glass and other industrial processes. In other words, carbon-free sunlight can replace fossil fuels in a heavy carbon-emitting corner of the economy that has been untouched by the clean energy revolution."

    Secretive energy startup backed by Bill Gates achieves solar breakthrough - CNN
     
  11. Indifference

    Indifference Well-Known Member

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    @Lizzie yes irony, because I was referring to Electric Arc Furnace technology that requires more electricity..... not the overall issue/debate.

    Also, the fact that many countries don't enjoy our sun drenched climate means the reality is that whilst these solar technologies are great for countries like Australia, they aren't so great for large parts of Europe, Russia, Canada etc. Yes there are great pockets of science emerging but there is no silver bullet for all purposes.
     
  12. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Agree - but if Australia wants to be/stay at the forefront it is about "transitioning" and embracing these new technologies rather than ignoring. By ignoring, the rest of the world will move on and we'll be left behind

    We can be a great exporter of renewable industry, technology and power because we have the sun/wind ... other countries have thermal/hydro ... even others have biomass and/or a combination of all five. It is simply a case of further developing and investing in the technology to harness, concentrate and store as the end "use" technology will be the same throughout
     
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  13. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why there is still "irony" seeings I linked to developed technology that can supply the Arc Furnace required electricity
     
  14. Indifference

    Indifference Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear.... oh dear.... sea borne coal is only a fraction of global production & consumption.....

    Australia doesn't even mine 10% of global production.... really.
    So even if Australia produced zero coal, it couldn't possibly take out 10-30% of global supply... Fact.

    Global coal output breaks 8-Bt in 2018; coal consumption rises 1.4% | The Coal Hub
     
    Last edited: 27th Dec, 2019
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  15. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    Coking coal is used to remove impurities from Iron Ore...

    How is Steel Produced?

    EAF or electric arc Furnaces dont actually create steel from Iron Ore, they melt down scrap steel. So steel recycling as it were.
     
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  16. gman65

    gman65 Well-Known Member

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    And that is why it is in demand.. lower ash content and higher calorific value. Meaning you need less to produce the same amount of energy.

    If there was no advantage to our coal there would be little demand.

    6.9% of world production according to Wikipedia. In a tight market, take that away and you think that will have no material impact?? Prices go up, pollution increases, and countries are forced to look for alternatives even sooner.

    Exported coal is used to offset temporary local production disruptions and stabilise prices. Take away double digit export supply and again there would be large price fluctuations. Again, if the rest of the world really doesn't need such a small amount, why are we exporting it?

    Let's start to phase out exporting such a dirty habit and encourage alternatives. Keep supplying an addict and they just keep going.
     
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  17. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    Except both India and China are the biggest polluters, if they had the ability to move to more sustainable clean energy solutions they would already be phasing out coal, instead they are the biggest polluters by far, and building more Coal Power Plants (at least in China).

    You are saying taking away a cleaner source will force China to innovate, instead of resorting to brown coal, I disagree.
     
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  18. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    If you read the link ... :rolleyes:
     
  19. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    "China has 121 gigawatts of coal plants under construction, which is more than is being built in the rest of the world combined. But here’s the weird thing—more than half the time, China’s coal plants are just sitting around collecting dust ... "
    China Is Still Building an Insane Number of New Coal Plants
     
  20. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'll have to spell it out for you.

    "The Electric arc furnace process, or mini-mill, does not involve iron-making. It reuses existing steel, avoiding the need for raw materials and their processing. The furnace is charged with steel scrap, it can also include some direct reduced iron (DRI) or pig iron for chemical balance."

    No new ore is used, so its steel recycling not creation of new iron and steel...
     

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