What hold does Russia have over Trump?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Lizzie, 17th Jul, 2018.

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  1. Noobieboy

    Noobieboy Well-Known Member

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    My take on it:

    At the cost of $12 million this report can out with nothing but charging some little fish with corruption.

    A huge waste of time and energy on fear pushing of “Russia” interference into the US politics. There is nothing to say about any collusion or interference.

    Waste. Of. Time. ... until they find some other target. I guess next it will be China, or NK. About time people stop blaming other countries for their own issues.
     
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  2. Perp

    Perp Well-Known Member

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    The investigation is the beginning, not the end. It has now been handed to Congress and state DAs to further investigate and determine what prosecutions should be made. Mueller didn't have the power to compel all necessary parties to testify; these parties do.

    This isn't nearly over.
     
  3. Perp

    Perp Well-Known Member

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    And if anybody's really interested in this story, you have to follow Seth Abramson on twitter: Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) | Twitter

    He's a lawyer and writer, and is meticulous in his focus on what is factually known, and specialises in synthesising all the information sources. ('Curatorial journalism')
     
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  4. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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  5. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    The Mueller report said, as regarding links with Russia, that Russia DID work towards a Trump victory. There were multiple links between Trump campaign officials and individuals tied to the Russian government. Those links included Russia offers of assistance to the Campaign. In some instances, the Campaign was receptive to the offer, while in other instances the Campaign officials shied away.

    The report did NOT exonerate Trump on obstruction charges, as he claimed.
    However, he did say that a sitting president cannot be charged with a crime, based on DoJ guidelines, but that Congress may apply obstruction laws.

    The president is doing all he can to ensure that Congress is unable to do anything to investigate what Mueller hinted should be investigated.
     
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  6. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    In fear of sounding like a broken record:

    - the investigation in $3mil in PROFIT
    - 5 associates have been jailed or convicted but pardon in exchange for information
    - Mueller said - 10 TIMES - in his report (have you read it?) that Trump obstructed .... and goodness knows how many times he's obstructed since, demanding subpoena's be ignored and demanding witnesses not testify to the House to supply further information
    - 14 Trump-related charges have been referred to other agencies (ie State) which have initiated investigations including money laundering and misappropriation of funds.

    I wish some people would stop getting their information from Fox Entertainment (not registered as a new outlet)
     
  7. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    Russia knows that the negotiations for the building of a Moscow Trump tower were ongoing right up until the Election Day and right through all that time Trump was stating he had no business with Russia, no ties with Russia. That gave them some power over him.

    There's so much smoke...
     
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  8. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Mueller finally breaks his silence and don't be fooled by the headline. He explains the reason he didn't bring charges was because the Constitution does not allow it:

    Robert Mueller says charging Trump was 'not an option'

    "The statement placed control of any inquiry of the President’s actions in the hands of congress, where Republican control of the Senate has proved enough to prevent Democrats from beginning impeachment proceedings."

    But further obstruction from both Trump and the Senate, and the Trump appointed AJ, is hindering Congress. This is just the beginning
     
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  9. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    Last edited: 30th May, 2019
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  10. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    From Mueller's statement
    So he has not been cleared of a crime.

    And Trump's response
    Screenshot_20190530-081743.png
    His statement reiterates, several times, that there was Russian interference in the election.
     
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  11. wategos

    wategos Well-Known Member

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    So Trump only has immunity from prosecution because he is president and there is a special clause that prohibits it ... so the stakes are high for him at the next election, because when he steps down it´s "lock him up" time ... the irony.
     
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  12. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    If Trump gets reelected, then the statute of limitations will run out on many of the offences he's been charged with.

    I think that Mueller's implication is that it's up to the appropriate authority to try him for crimes - that's Congress. But the Dems know that that's divisive, and unlikely to succeed in the Senate.
     
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  13. Perp

    Perp Well-Known Member

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    It's past time to impeach. It seems many senior Democrats are only holding back from doing it because they're afraid it'll upset Trump supporters, and may blow back at the election. I think this is shameful. Even if the impeachment bid is ultimately unsuccessful - which seems to be another fear of senior Democrats - you shouldn't be attempting it because of the prospects of success, but because it's the right thing to do, and because Trump's conduct warrants impeachment.

    I'm so sick of politicians - in Australia and elsewhere - sacrificing what is right for what they think will give them the best chances at the ballot box.

    I'm not sure it's even in their best interests, and that they're not underestimating the public.

    I think there's a thirst amongst the public for leaders who take principled stands. We've seen very little of it in politics in the last decade or so. When leaders are true to their principles, you at least know what you're getting. The present politicians - of both major parties in Australian and the US - don't seem to have strong principles, so you never really know what policies they might come up with, if they think it'll win them votes. And this isn't a partisan statement I'm making - in decades past, whether Hawke, Keating, Howard, or Fraser - you knew what they stood for (whether you agreed with it or not), and what you'd get.

    I disagreed with John Howard on many things, but I think he always stood for what he thought was right, even if it wasn't popular, and I admire him enormously for it.

    Mainstream politicians seem too timid to do that these days - the only ones standing up for their principles, without regard to the ballot box, are those with extremist and abhorrent principles. (eg Anning, Hanson, etc.)
     
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  14. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

    1. The Dems have power in Congress - but the Senate is riddled with majority Trump supporters (McConnell, Graham et al) - which is also why nothing much has been achieved in the last 6 months, since the Congress elections. The Senate is blocking everything presented by Congress, at every turn, purely for the sake of blocking. The Dems know they won't get far with the current Senate and the whole scenario could end up one big circus.

    2. Impeachment is such a long process, tying up enormous energy and time, and may not even be enacted by the time the next elections come around.

    3. If they get rid of Trump - the end up with Pence - who is more evil in that he has the same ideologies as Trump, but is more devious in his methods of delivery.

    I wonder if the Dems consider their best option is simply to keep the pressure up, so that Trump continues to show his true colours and peeves enough people off (already many of his supporters - including Fox - are turning away), in hope that they whitewash the 2020 elections ... either that of they force him to resign through health issues bought on by stress
     
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  15. Perp

    Perp Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of, and alluded to, all the considerations you outline. They're all variants of 'will it be successful', 'what will the impact be?', 'how will it affect our chances in 2020?'

    When somebody commits a crime, you prosecute them, because they've committed a crime. Political concerns should play no part in deciding whether somebody should get away with committing a crime or not.

    The rule of law is important, and Trump holds it in contempt. The Congress's job is to hold the POTUS to account. Expecting that you might fail, and pragmatic concerns, should be, and I would argue are, a distant secondary to their constitutional duty to hold the President to account, because nobody else can.

    Congress isn't even trying to do its job.
     
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  16. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    But don't the practicalities of having good odds of achieving a prosecution hold in law? Would the DPP take a case to court if they felt their chance of prosecution to be low? This may be nothing to do with the guilt of the defendant, but perhaps other things, like the judge likely to hear the case, complexity of evidence before a jury, or whatever.

    The Democrats have the choice of impeachment now, or possibly winning an election and having the ex president face charges out if office. They may increase their chances of getting elected (possibly) if impeachment is not pursued.
     
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  17. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Explains in detail why the Dem's are not rushing into impeachment:

    Donald Trump 'wants us to impeach him,' Nancy Pelosi tells Jimmy Kimmel

    Knowing impeachment is almost certain to fail in the GOP-controlled Senate ... Pelosi has been cautious because she believes Trump wants Democrats to impeach him: “He knows it’s not a good idea to be impeached, but the silver lining for him is, then he believes that he would be exonerated by the United States Senate, and there’s a school of thought that says, if the Senate acquits you, why bring up charges against him in the private sector when he’s no longer president? So when we go through with our case, it’s got to be ironclad,” she explained.
     
    Last edited: 1st Jun, 2019
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  18. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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  19. Piston_Broke

    Piston_Broke Well-Known Member

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    And yet the lies and deception are starting to come out from Mueller's report.

    But at least the FBI and DOJ has been rid of a few corrupt execs.

    Btw also coming out is the list of Hilary donors employed by Mueller for his "report".
     
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  20. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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