Trump to address the US

Discussion in 'Politics' started by willair, 9th Jan, 2019.

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  1. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Getting back on topic ... both houses of government (Senate and House) have passed a bill to re-open the government. The only thing preventing such is Trump refusal to sign off. The House has also passed a bill to bypass the requirement of Trump's signature to reopen government - but Mitch McConnell has refused to bring it to the Senate for a vote. The only reason for McConnell's refusal would be a fear that it would pass.

    The facts make a lie out of this morning's tweet:

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    Last edited: 13th Jan, 2019
  2. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Let's break down this other tweet from this morning:

    Lie #1 - According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 19.3% of inmates originated from a different country. This does not make them illegal immigrants and does not make them from south of the border - they are simply from "elsewhere". Think you'll find similar stats in Australia BOP Statistics: Inmate Citizenship

    Lie #2 - 292,000 criminal charges were laid. Only 120,000 resulted in convictions. To muddy the water's and make the stats look worse, he's included accusations and crimes over an 8 year period - of which these are also charges but not convictions. If you break down the stats into yearly figures then they fall way below the per/person average for the good ole State of Texas

    Lie #3 - Border arrest numbers have remained steady. The arrest of family groups at the border is up 240% (but not the overall numbers)

    Lie #4 - The Dems and Reps have already resolved the shutdown. It's Trump that refuses to sign off on it

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    Last edited: 13th Jan, 2019
  3. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    And in fact, it's just family border arrests which are up 240%. Total border arrests have been steady.

    Raw statistics of crimes are meaningless if they are not showing a correlation with overall crimes vs percent of population - crimes committed by immigrants, legal and illegal, are lower as a percentage of population than of the population in general. That's not even taking into account activity which is illegal just because a person is illegal.

    It's just a part of the demonisation of Mexicans and latinos, a dog whistle to racist elements in his base.
     
    Last edited: 13th Jan, 2019
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  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I did some reading on United States' state of emergencies some years back and found the US had been in a permanent state of one since the 1930s for various reasons (except a possible 1-2 year break some decades ago). For example the US has been in a national emergency since 2001 based on the 9/11 attacks and this has been extended for the past 18 years across former Presidents Bush, Obama and the current President Trump. It suspends certain laws around military size and duration of service.

    I point this out, not to deflect from Trump's actions, but to highlight that these sorts of decisions are completely normal in the context of those made by sitting Presidents and it is probably not an attempt to instill a Dictatorship.
     
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  5. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting reading how they declare - but a state of emergency is generally declared when there is some threat or catastrophe out of the ordinary with a defined period of "clean up" - whereas, what is happening on the Southern border is ongoing and unchanged as to what has been occurring for decades and - in fact - are actually improving.

    Reading through the lists of declarations is interesting - wildfires and typhoons and hurricanes and flooding Disasters | FEMA.gov - with only two coming up under terrorist Disasters | FEMA.gov

    I do find the definition of what consists a "State of Emergency" quite interesting. In this case, what concerns me, is declaring a SOE when none exists:

    "... States of emergency can also be used as a rationale or pretext for suspending rights and freedoms guaranteed under a country's constitution or basic law. ... Though fairly uncommon in democracies, dictatorial regimes often declare a state of emergency that is prolonged indefinitely for the life of the regime, or for extended periods of time so that derogations can be used to override human rights of their citizens usually protected by the International Covenant on Civil and political rights ... " State of emergency - Wikipedia
     
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  6. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    We are further veering off topic here {Note: off topic posts have been deleted}. The original topic was Trump's speech, and perhaps by implication, the wall, the possibility of an emergency, and the shutdown.

    Perhaps we can post on topics which veer away from these guidelines to another thread.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 14th Jan, 2019
  7. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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  8. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Snap - was just about to post that
     
  9. LibGS

    LibGS Well-Known Member

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    It would be appreciated if this this policy was applied consistently in the politics forum, at times it hasn't.
     
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  10. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    At times I am busy and threads tend to move quickly.

    Feel free to report any posts which you feel are off topic.
     
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  11. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    More distortion, lying and scaremongering. If you look at ICE's website ***kinda funny it's banner reads "Due to the lapse in federal funding, this website will not be actively managed" *** the first page listing includes Saudis, Pakistanis, Cambodians, Bosnians, Taiwanese, Yugoslavians, Hungarians, Chinese and numerous American citizens (ICE makes arrests on behalf of Homeland Security).

    Of the 24 listed cases on page 1 (some multiple arrests in one case), only 2 arrived illegally from south of the border - the figures quoted by Trump include ALL cases, not just those illegal and not just those from South America

    ICE website ... News Releases

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  12. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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  13. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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  14. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    Ironic.

    The numbers are small. But the US has so many more people who have arrived by other means and simply overstayed their visas, just like the US illegals in Mexico.

    I wouldn't mind spending more time.in Mexico, especially in a smallish town, away from the coast, where the climate can be quite mild all year round.
     
  15. willair

    willair Well-Known Member Premium Member

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  16. Guest

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    It's amazing that the Democrats are continuing to keep the government shut down by refusing to allow a spend of $5.7b on border security.

    About 0.4% of discretionary spending for the 2019 fiscal year.
     
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  17. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    The question really should be: Why is Trump continuing to keep the government shut because the Dems support all his border requests (including extras) except funding for the wall that has been proven already to be a waste of money - and is merely to pander to a faulty election promise (pretty sure Mexico was supposed to pay for it)?

    Both houses of government - congress and senate - have voted NOT to fund a wall. Mitch has refused, for 3 weeks, to bring to vote in the senate a bill passed by congress to by-pass Trump and reopen government because he knows it would've had majority senate support.

    What's democratic about either of those scenarios?

    Thankfully the Senate will now vote on re-opening on Thursday due to pressure from the people
     
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  18. LibGS

    LibGS Well-Known Member

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    He promised that Mexico would fund it. So Trump is blackmailing the country because HE made what is basically a bizarre campaign promise, that there was no way known he could keep.
     
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  19. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Read this quote from a new book coming out, written by one of Trump's former aides, "Team of Vipers" ... thought it rather telling:

    "Trump believes he alone, often through sheer force of will, can solve certain problems... Layered on top of that is his belief that all of life is a negotiation, and that every negotiation is a zero-sum game. There's no such thing as a 'win–win;' someone will win and someone will lose. Layered on top of that is his belief that personal relationships are paramount... And layered on top of that is his belief that creating chaos gives him an advantage because he's more comfortable in the mayhem than anyone else."

    The disturbing part is that he believes there must be a winner and a loser - and that nothing can be win-win.

    (I didn't include the bit about the aide having to always carry around a can of hairspray.)
     
  20. wategos

    wategos Well-Known Member

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    The 5.7 billion is just for a few hundred miles. Giving in to such a wasteful ineffective ego project would be like giving in to a toddler with unreasonable demands. Better to stay firm, resist, and propose more effective measures (as they have done) than to give in to toddlers like Trump, or he'll just do it again. It's a Trump shutdown, he owns it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
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