The coalition is pretty much ignoring Climate Change

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Chabs, 30th Mar, 2019.

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  1. Chabs

    Chabs Well-Known Member

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    Thought I would reply to some comments with some short messages, without the vitriol. Just focusing on climate discussions here, so hopefully not too off topic. For the record I am not particularly fond of any of the political parties nor "two main party" system.

    Its cool we have great air quality and lack of pollution here, and we don't have the population density, georaphical and industrial problems of other regions.

    • Renewables are cheaper than non-renewables for electricity generation, and hence heating. Government needs to invest more in its direction and it will continue to be cheaper. The other types of carbon & carbon emitting practices are more of a problem
    • Australia has high per capita energy use and particularly energy use that is bad for the environment, such as vehicle fuels and coal.
    • Acknowledging, investing and innovating in activities that help combat climate change sets a good example to countries such as China & India, who are no strangers to copying innovations.
    • Our Government is looking to improve the innovation happening in this country, this is because for advanced service economies like Australias, this helps our PPP GDP improve relative to other countries that have labour cost advantages. Investment & innovation in the renewable energy sector would greatly add value to the Australian economy and is likely to add many jobs long term.
    • My tax situation is most likely above average for someone my age, and higher than most baby boomers/etc were paying when they were a similar age, even adjusted for inflation.. not sure why this is relevant however. I also own property, again, not sure how this is relevant.
    • I don't think you're backwards, you just value some things more than others, and like most, you will look for information to back up your ideology. This isn't a sports match for it to be something like "My team" vs. "Your team".

    That's your perception/opinion, and I'm sure you're not letting it distract you from a rational discussion or making an informed opinion. Of course everyone votes for what they believe is in their best inerests and those they care about.

    Global consumption is something we have no control over, people want to live nice lives and want to be free to make their own decisions about what they do. The whole purpose of trying to combat climate change is to try and innovate and invest in ways that make energy used for our day to day lives more sustainable for the future.

    I'm personally not a fan of the "***** happening anyway because of other people, let's just watch it happen" approach. But I guess its better than ignoring/not addressing it at all :confused:


    For me, money is money, it comes and it goes, I do not vote for the Government which saves me more money or which enacts policy which improves the value of my assets. I vote for whichever Government is more likely (from my perception, which could be wrong of course) to make our country/people/planet better!
     
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  2. Illusivedreams

    Illusivedreams Well-Known Member

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    Some of your staff is simply not true.

    Mostly in respect to generation being cheaper.
    Very few projects in the world have succeed in delving cheaper price per Kwh.
    I can think of 1 or two projects in Saudi Arabia.

    Time will tell. Their is little track record. Most of these very cheap productions were promises. Yes we can sell for 3c per kw hour. Most are 7-8c and above. But people take this formation and run with it.

    Without storage it means nothing.

    Yes nothing.

    I love Solar and wind. I have written an article on Linked in re electric vehicles in agriculture. But your information is simply biased. Just like others look for confirmation bias. I have no doubt im the same.

    Although fact of the matter remains.

    So the information you provided confirms your believes and what you are trying to prove.

    Show me specific installations which provide cheaper base load power and can provide it around the clock,

    YOU CANT do that because it does not exist. Yes when it really blows or really sunny.

    Key is simple ( Storage) when this is solved world will be a different place.
     
  3. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    Don't forget that batteries are not the only form of storage available.

    Take a look at what Malcolm Turnbull has been championing for some time now - the extension of the Snowy Hydro scheme using pumped hydro (and I think similar work in Tasmania), meaning that vast amounts of electricity generated from renewable sources can be "stored" for later use - thus decreasing the requirement for base-load power generation.

    It's not the only solution, and battery technology is also required - just wanted to point out that it's not the only way to achieve this.
     
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  4. Illusivedreams

    Illusivedreams Well-Known Member

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    100% agreed,
    Hence storage.

    I agree with your points.

    I just dont feel like we have to have the abrupt and expensive transition we are having.

    IT ahs cost so many jobs and business it could and should have been handled much, much better.

    We are blessed with endless resources. We should have the cheapest gas ,cheapest electricity in the world.
     
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  5. BuyersAgent

    BuyersAgent Well-Known Member Business Member

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    Pumped hydro is (in my opinion) the real deal regarding baseload renewable power generation and storage and the most viable long term alternative to coal (unless you are a fan of nuclear of coure which is still an option too).

    It is totally possible, and environmentally awesome in terms of carbon emissions, it just involves building dams which is expensive in the short term. These guys are doing some very good work.
    Genex Power

    I would think that pumped hydro would have 10x or more the potential for actual baseload grid power compared to batteries (until battery tech is MUCH better than current)
     
  6. Chabs

    Chabs Well-Known Member

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    You are right that current popular renewables often operate at a not so good efficiency, or even at zero efficiency, especially solar panels at night. This doesn't absolve fossil fuels or justify keeping the status quo though!

    Of course it is silly to expect renewables to replace fossil fuels over night, if there was an economical case for it that obvious it would have happened already!

    By using sustainable sources wherever possible and then innovating to fill in gaps, you get cyclical benefits of improving the economy and gradually working towards ensuring those old people can have comfortable heating / air conditioning.

    The fact that they are cheaper though - when useful - is a great excuse to start blasting investments into obvious use cases where they outperform. To use your earlier example and flip it around, think of the elderly people who die every time we have major heatwaves because of lack of access to air conditioning or it being unobtainable for them.

    This is better than advocating for "more coal". Even worse is completely ignoring the potential because of substantial money coming from those companies, I guess its part of their marketing budget. The fact that we are seeing this happen is more a symptom of a deeper problem, where we are seeing that contemporary politics is too easily influenced by corporations who "privatise their ($) profits, and socialise their (enviromental) damages".
     
    Last edited: 1st Apr, 2019
  7. Chabs

    Chabs Well-Known Member

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    Nuclear would be awesome, only big investments are the initial ones, and there's scope for a lot of technology development, as I believe most current plants operate on very old technology.
     
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  8. Clyde

    Clyde Well-Known Member

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    As some of you have mentioned storage and cost are still a bit of a hurdle. But we are getting closer. When I first heard the hyrdo was going to pump water back up into the dam I thought wtf. Because it probably takes 100 times more energy or much more to pump water into the dam from below that it does to release water to power the generator. BUT if we do not use as much energy during the day, and solar and wind power is supplied to pump water back up during the day, or even at night by some wind power, it is sort of like charging a big battery via solar or wind.

    And picture the dam as one huge battery that is being charged during the day. And the level of the dam is much like representing the power left in the battery. So while I thought it a little mad at first, if the cost to supply solar or wind pumping water back up during the day, it makes very good sense.

    I will just touch on compressed air storage and storage tanks. This is another field with many now selling these systems. I do not know how good they really are, or the cost, but it can and is being done now. It basically involves a huge compressed air tank or some have multiple tanks linked, that can be buried in the ground. A compressor would be powered by solar during the day to fill the tank and provide daytime power. The compressed air would then be feed to a small air powered generator to power your home.

    All the best for now.
     
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  9. BuyersAgent

    BuyersAgent Well-Known Member Business Member

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    Sounds fun @Clyde

    My comments are based on chats with a family member who is very senior in Ausgrid and manages the Sydney grid. The fact that there is power inefficiencies in pumping water back uphill is irrelevant. It's about having massive stored power and the ability to turn very big very heavy turbines when needed to stabilise the grid and offer baseload power. The grid actually needs stability from these large scale items (complex math that he understands, I don't) to avoid spikes and anomalies. When you have large amounts of free power from the sun (ie pumped hydro plus a solar farm) you can afford to lose a little wasted power in return for having massive power potential sitting in the dam up the hill. Think of the waste in batteries as they lose charge, think of the heat that escapes the system in a coal-fired power station, think about the power that escapes the wires, all systems have losses. It's not about the losses it's about the sum total of gains and the benefit for cities of millions of people and how reliable the power output can be. Pumped hydro plus solar gives an essential combination of gains that could replace the entire grid power for a nation like no other renewables at present IMO.
     
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  10. dabbler

    dabbler Well-Known Member

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    Climate has been changing as long as there has been one......it has warmed since the ice age....so....

    At same time, no need to pollute and not harness natural energy, the immediate prob for politicians, is who gives them funds for the next election and being on the public teat, this is why none can really take the old system on. It is not so much about the people now, more the system they want for selves and interested parties.

    I do not like many things about both parties, but the Labour guys always blow what is in the bank, and anyone who lived through Keatings recession who had commitments will not forget the disregard they had. If they wasted it on things that brought us in more wealth as a whole country, would not mind, but both have a habit of welfare handouts to those who do not need them.

    System really is broken prob beyond repair & no more bold leaders,

    At the end of the day, you have to enable individuals to go out and do well for themselves, we live in social societies, but it is the individual who gets things done, multiple motivated individuals is better for the whole, so Liberal ideas are also still social in that respect.
     
  11. Clyde

    Clyde Well-Known Member

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    Ok thankyou. The inefficiencies are not irrelevant if the cost was way to much forcing prices higher. But in saying that ,solar panel life is around a quarter of century hopefully, so time to pay it off. They would need to be replaced in future aswell. And while it is all a good idea, running the whole country from hydro is not as easy as you think. To power a city as big as Sydney, you would need a dam bigger than Sydney itself. Probably five times bigger. And that dam needs to placed much higher in order for it to generate enough force to power the generators. I can tell you right now, it is an impossiblity to power the whole country with hydro, not to mention the expense to build it all.

    Think of how many olympic sized swimming pools it would take to power your home like this. And then it needs to be placed much higher, a lot higher. Imagine the cost and space required to do that, when the same result can be achieved with a roof full of solar panels and a little shed full of batteries.

    We simply cannot do hydro for everywhere, as good as it is, it is not possible or viable for the whole country.

    All the best.
     
  12. MWI

    MWI Well-Known Member

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    Agree about 'climate has been changing and always will'...a friend geologist who studied ice age for his thesis many years ago, told me that we are actually approaching ice age rather than warming....also has various views on CO2...very hard topic too discuss as it requires an in depth specialized knowledge about the subject, hence who and what they present to us the public can really influence us in this point in time!
     
  13. abc

    abc Active Member

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    Personally the saddest thing is for a country like Australia who should be restructuring their economy for success in 21st century, things like renewable and alternative energy sources could be a key area where it leads but it doesn’t.

    Australia should look to countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Israel, etc. who have smaller populations but have global leading firms a cpl of areas that are massive growth areas for next century.

    Because of climate, geographical location, and terrain variation, Australia has a unique advantage if we encourage and invest in R&D and education focused on new energy sources which could be licensed and sold globally.
    Similarly could do well bc of historical natural advantages in biomedical technology.

    These are things that ultimately push wages up over long term, increase standard of living and then justify the premium prices for housing beyond just credit availability.
     
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  14. Illusivedreams

    Illusivedreams Well-Known Member

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    Nederland?

    Really ?

    Country makes the greater part of its GDP exporting Gas :)

    How about Sweden.. well here is an extract

    Propelled by growing shipments of refined petroleum oils, the fastest-growing top export category for Sweden was mineral fuels including oil up 34.1% from 2017 to 2018.

    So how about that...


    Israel

    Well it's becoming a tech capital of the world especially for it's size. Also start up capital.

    But I'm sure Greenies would stop all weapon exports and tech in that area. Knowing Australians probably break in to facilities and tress pass and Bill shorten would promise to close and stop all exports.

    Our number 1 issue in Australian is a sense ofof entitlement.
     
  15. Silverson

    Silverson Well-Known Member

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    Santa
    Easter bunny
    Climate change

    Notice the similarities.
    Without sounding like a conspiracy theorist I believe half of what I see and none of what I hear about climate change.
    My view and I'm entitled to it
     
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  16. Chabs

    Chabs Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, perception is reality!

    Its always harder to see the writing on the wall - which requires change - if you benefit from the status quo, i.e. no change. I don't mind you not seeing it, but it becomes a problem when politicians are paid handsomely, directly or otherwise, to not see it and completely ignore the requests of a sizeable portion of their constituents! Particularly the portion that hasn't had the opportunity to live through 30+ years of adult life yet and will be the most impacted.

    That said, this is hardly an Australian problem, as mentioned earlier, the problem is everywhere.

    Personally, I'm not as interested in the short term pay through Coalition's policies directly putting more money in my pocket. Personally, I am trying for longer term benefit, because this benefits me more overall (my perception). let's see if either party can deliver..
     
    Last edited: 6th Apr, 2019
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  17. TAJ

    TAJ Well-Known Member

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    It's hard not to be skeptical when with all the resources at their disposal they can't accurately predict what the weather will be like tomorrow!
    Sorry, but I don't have the same faith in these so called experts.
     
  18. dabbler

    dabbler Well-Known Member

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    The think I find funny also...is all the greenies wont go back to living in a cave......lol....so how could they be even half serious.
     
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  19. Chabs

    Chabs Well-Known Member

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    Haha, I am not here to preach green stuff, just explaining the situation. If anything I'm very pro investing in the economic productivity because it tends to improve the world, and importantly, the average persons perception of it!! I don't really get too deep into green "pro-climate" things, it doesn't need to be one extreme or the other.

    Even if you don't think climate change is real, or you can't smell the polution when you walk through crowded city streets, or you don't believe its a problem that humans are turning a lot of untouched land into generic pastures/croplands/mines/whatnot. Or don't care that there is substantially less flora/fauna numbers and diversity in the world today than any time in the last 20+ years, or don't care that most of the Great Barrier Reef is going to ****, or don't care that heat waves are getting worse because they can't affect your air conditioned office, I think the following are fundamental:
    • The reality is that investing in emerging technologies, and divesting in dieing technologies would be nice to keep giving people new jobs and keep selling products to global markets, staying competitive despite higher domestic costs.
    • Incentivising people to invest in ways that would boost the economy for everyone more than it boosts it for the few would be nice for sustainability.
    Of course, what policies achieve goals that benefit everybody the most is up for debate. But there is no debate that encouraging a productive economy and discouraging non-productive actions or removing subsidies/benefits/concessions to non-productive activities will make things better for everyone.

    Everyone will form their own opinion, usually it starts with what they want to believe, which directs them to read news they want to agree with, ignore that which they don't etc.

    I'm guilty of that too, everyone has their perception.
     
    Last edited: 6th Apr, 2019
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  20. Chabs

    Chabs Well-Known Member

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    Its not faith, the predictions aren't coming from Jesus. You don't need faith to see hard evidence. I didn't know weather forecasters are supposed to be climate scientists :confused:

    And I am not here to preach lol, that's something you'll have to care enough about to think critically and evalute different opinions/data yourself.
     
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