Steve Navra - Economics References Committee 2015-08-06

Discussion in 'Property Experts' started by Chai Walla, 21st Nov, 2015.

Join Australia's most dynamic and respected property investment community
Tags:
Page 2 of 5
  1. RM1827

    RM1827 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    156
    Location:
    Sydney
    RM1827, 22nd Nov, 2015
    #21
  2. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    15th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    11,677
    Location:
    Newcastle
    There is another company mentioned in his LinkedIn profile. It looks as if he's done some consultancy work for another company while still working with his "main" company. I'm not sure if it's the same one as yours, I don't have time to check just yet.
     
    geoffw, 22nd Nov, 2015
    #22
    RM1827 likes this.
  3. Spiderman

    Spiderman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    296
    Location:
    Vic
    Last edited: 22nd Nov, 2015
    Spiderman, 22nd Nov, 2015
    #23
  4. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    15th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    11,677
    Location:
    Newcastle
    His resume lists him as also being a consultant to the Mccarthy Group from Feb 2013 to June 2014, then as a consultant from July 2014 (company unnamed).

    To be fair to him, there's a lot he has to say about real estate which is good, especially in terms of picking areas and properties. But not cashbonds.
     
    geoffw, 22nd Nov, 2015
    #24
  5. Chai Walla

    Chai Walla Member

    Joined:
    19th Nov, 2015
    Posts:
    9
    Location:
    NSW
    I think his clients that invested in his Structured Property Fund would beg to differ. The properties he bought for the SPF did not take into account his 'recommended' criteria for buying property - I am not sure where things are at now but a while ago they had lost something like 40% of their investment - this is after Gary Scallion and his crew got their hands on it.
     
    Last edited: 22nd Nov, 2015
    Chai Walla, 22nd Nov, 2015
    #25
    KJL, Simon Hampel, RM1827 and 2 others like this.
  6. Peter_Tersteeg

    Peter_Tersteeg Mortgage Broker Business Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    8,170
    Location:
    03 9877 3000
    Like Geoff, I actually like a lot of what he's got to say about property. That being said, the advice may be good but I've seen deals that didn't follow that advice and were complete duds.

    His ideas about trading (be it gold or anything else) also sound quite good. The results in implementation have been something else altogether however.
     
    Peter_Tersteeg, 22nd Nov, 2015
    #26
    Simon Hampel and RM1827 like this.
  7. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    3rd Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    12,414
    Location:
    Sydney
    This is exactly the issue.

    One thing I learned from the whole history of NavraInvest is that theoretical trading systems are all well and good when it's only your own money at risk.

    When you have other people's money at risk, it's a whole different ball game - and there are many other factors which come into play in the fund manager's decision making which make the theory pretty much useless - especially when you add leverage to the mix!

    Another thing to consider is the whole concept of "flexibility" in the mandate of the fund manager. The freedom that NavraInvest had to move from fully invested in the markets to fully cashed out of the markets (at their discretion) seemed liked a good idea in theory.

    But the reality was that it gave them far more too much freedom to make decisions which were ultimately not in the best interest of unitholders. In my opinion, the decisions that were made in the post-GFC years benefited the fund manager far more than any other party involved - although like most things, I also believe it is far more complicated than can be described in a single paragraph.

    I was never a client of their financial planning business, but I ran their website and did IT consulting work for them - so I was involved in a lot of the seminars and presentations they did to their clients and got to see their sales pitch. In the fallout of the collapse of the group, I talked to a lot of their ex-clients and was shocked by what I learned about the advice they had been given and the financial situation a lot of them found themselves in because of that advice.

    I learned an enormous amount about financial risk management through this whole process of observing what happened to Navra's clients - and especially what NOT to do :(
     
    Last edited: 23rd Nov, 2015
    Simon Hampel, 23rd Nov, 2015
    #27
    el caballo and RM1827 like this.
  8. Spiderman

    Spiderman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    29th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    296
    Location:
    Vic
    I agree and tend to think it's a problem inherent in almost all managed investment schemes or 'one stop shop' real estate spruiker outfits.

    People think the fund manager is looking after their money. But in fact they spend a lot of their time in touting their business and increasing their customer base. The latter requires responding to what the market wants - or says it wants.

    When a particular asset class is at its most popular, and the stories about all the instant millionaires are out, would be the time the investment promoter would get the most converts.

    But since by that time the asset is expensive the returns for the newer investors aren't necessarily as good as those who got in earlier. Yet the returns, growth and commissions for the spruiker are peaking.

    You could argue it's the same deal with punters who buy direct property, shares or whatever.

    But in the case of a fund manager or promoter, it takes a while to develop and market an investment product. By the time it's out and there's mania in the streets about the 'instant millionaires' it's pretty much too late to buy. Especially if your investment strategy is dependent on continued capital growth to justify poor yield / negative cashflow, or lax credit policies which can change when times change.

    I just can't see any way out of this unless the educators and devisers of schemes stick to doing just that. Even though from their own business point of view it's irresistible to team up with brokers, solicitors, other spruikers etc to capitalise on market demand that at least to some extent their information has fuelled.
     
    Last edited: 23rd Nov, 2015
    Spiderman, 23rd Nov, 2015
    #28
  9. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    15th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    11,677
    Location:
    Newcastle
    I lost money with Steve's fund, but at least it was limited to the cash I'd invested without borrowing, unlike some. In fact, before there were any NavraInvest funds, I went to see Steve, who told me that I was already doing all the right things, and that I didn't really need him. I respect that.

    I similarly lost money with a couple of Peter Spann's funds, again limited to cash. At least Peter taught me about investing in property, so I consider myself well ahead from that point of view.

    Perhaps both are examples of the Peter Principle- people doing something well, and as a result, going to the next level where they can no longer do as well.
     
    geoffw, 23rd Nov, 2015
    #29
    luckyone and el caballo like this.
  10. Chai Walla

    Chai Walla Member

    Joined:
    19th Nov, 2015
    Posts:
    9
    Location:
    NSW

    Attached Files:

    Chai Walla, 30th Nov, 2015
    #30
  11. See Change

    See Change Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,148
    Location:
    Sydney
    See Change, 30th Nov, 2015
    #31
  12. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    3rd Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    12,414
    Location:
    Sydney
    I would be surprised if this is not a misinterpretation of what is written there.

    I wouldn't jump to conclusions without further clarification of exactly what the document refers to.

    But yes, nobody has ever referred to any previous bankruptcy.
     
    Simon Hampel, 30th Nov, 2015
    #32
  13. willair

    willair Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    6,795
    Location:
    ....UKI nth nsw ....
    Third time lucky maybe..
     
    willair, 30th Nov, 2015
    #33
    See Change, S.T and Terry_w like this.
  14. See Change

    See Change Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,148
    Location:
    Sydney
    For who ?

    Steve or his clients ?

    Cliff
     
    See Change, 1st Dec, 2015
    #34
    skater likes this.
  15. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    10,272
    Location:
    Sydney? Gold Coast?
    Every time his name comes up, I thank my lucky stars that he put my nose out by arrogantly telling us that we'd bought the wrong properties, should sell the lot & buy something else. Thank goodness that we didn't and walked out thinking he was full of himself, never giving him a cent.

    Hubby is retired today because of our terrible portfolio.
     
    skater, 1st Dec, 2015
    #35
    luckyone, 733, el caballo and 3 others like this.
  16. willair

    willair Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    6,795
    Location:
    ....UKI nth nsw ....
    Hard question to answer,for the people like myself who sat there in Brisbane and sat right down the back on the right hand side and had a listen to what this gentleman said on the day
    for someone starting out it ,it was maybe what they wanted without them doing anything apart from opening the opm cheque book and roll the dice..
    I give him one item,anyone that wanted a quick talk after the numbers were displayed and all the talking finished ,and you walk away or sign up ,he talked to several with his minder beside
    him like me,and all he said was after i said where we were in investing terms,and he told me upfront just keep what i'm doing,i only have to look into the eyes of cleaners who are still working into their late 60's in the CBD areas,not everyone is a winner Cliff..
     
    willair, 1st Dec, 2015
    #36
  17. Terry_w

    Terry_w Lawyer, Tax Adviser and Mortgage broker in Sydney Business Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    41,984
    Location:
    Australia wide
    That is what he said to me, between cigarettes. That is the reason I didn't proceed too.
     
    Terry_w, 1st Dec, 2015
    #37
    el caballo and skater like this.
  18. Jacque

    Jacque Jacque Parker Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    2,653
    Location:
    Sydney
    Well that is a surprise- I wasn't aware of this. Goes to show how much background research we need to conduct on so-called "advisors", particularly when they're providing advice on unregulated products such as real estate.
    As per the other post on Navra Property Spruikers list in Australia, he (and his wife Verena White) are still kicking around providing advice and services in a new Melb firm setup. Consumers beware!
     
    Jacque, 30th Mar, 2016
    #38
  19. willair

    willair Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    6,795
    Location:
    ....UKI nth nsw ....
    Some people call it the "sheep shearing investment strategy" you walk in one door with a full coat,and walk out the back door with zero,the gold coast is full of this,and if it works on the gold coast it works anywhere in the world,..
     
    willair, 30th Mar, 2016
    #39
  20. Chai Walla

    Chai Walla Member

    Joined:
    19th Nov, 2015
    Posts:
    9
    Location:
    NSW

    Attached Files:

    Chai Walla, 30th Mar, 2016
    #40
Page 2 of 5