something something something religion

Yep.

Whats your point? That one horrible religion is horrible so its okay for another horrible religion to be horrible?

The church was just as bad as islam for a long time there, especially when it was in charge. It was called the dark ages.

But it eventually came kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Something that Islam stubbornly refuses to do.

Im not a fan of Christianity either by the way. But one does not justify the other.

 

I don't think anyone here is professing to be a fan of religion.

 

Its not really the religion thats the problem, its the culture.

The reason stonings occur regularly and seem to be condoned in the old testament/torah and islamic texts is because that was the culture of the region at the time of writing and evidently a lot of it has remained. The religion is just reflecting the culture, not the other way around.

Hindus and sikhs have some pretty misogynistic beliefs and practises (arranged/forced marriages, dowries, dowry killings, honor killings, selective abortion).

The yazidis famously persecuted by ISIS believe and practise honor killings and stonings.

Orthodox jews are always complaining about sharing public spaces with women or women showing too much skin.

Female genital mutilation is practised in christian countries like Eritrea and Ethiopia as well as muslim countries like egypt.

The question is why do cultures all over the world with significant differences share so many disturbing beliefs about the treatment of women?

 

You're absolutely right, which is why people like myself are not critisizing Muslims. We are and I am heavily critical of the belief structure of Islam. This is where the Progressive left need to get their fingers out of their ears and start understanding that you can be critical of a bad idea without condemning the person believing it.
A family friend was in the SS as a youngster. He joined to fight for his country and stand by his mates. The organization he joined was abhorrent , however he was a fantastic guy who in his eyes was fighting against americans who were attacking his country.
The point is that we have to be able to distinguish between criticism of a person and criticism of an idea.

 

The koran is based off the old testament.. They are all preaching ghastly ideas. The BIG difference is that Islam has not yet achieved the notion of separation of church and state. The last time Europe and the West had no separation of church and state, it was called the Dark Ages.
That is the difference and why Islam is so incompatible with our ideas. We are winding the clock back 1000 years when we say Islamic culture is equal and compatible with ours. It clearly isn't.

 

I have to agree here, we are debating details but our timelines are way out when doing comparisons.

 

I remember quite clearly when I was brought to
Islamic Court in Jordan. Although the car that hit me in the back in any western country the fault always lies with the car that hit u in the back yet the Islamic court was also about considering the feelings of the person who smashed into my car hence all parties needed to have good feelings before it could be resolved. So some rules although with good intentions were not applicable as they did not have cars back then

 

Its not Islam that needs to achieve the separation of church and state. Its the civil society living in muslim majority countries that somehow have to tread a path of entering the modern era while retaining their cultural heritage. Indonesia and Turkey are doing this in fits and starts, the Gulf states and Persian Gulf far less so.

 

No thats incorrect. This is the main mistake people are making. They seem to consider Islam as the same type of religion as Christianity or Judaism. Islam is much more than just the religion. It influences life, law and politics far more than the other religions. It is a governing structure.
Islam IS their cultural heritage.
Indonesia and Especially Turkey are poor examples. Turkey is becoming Islamist at an alarming rate. I go there around every two years and first visited in the 90s.
The football crowd there booed the minutes silence for the paris attacks the day after.
8% according to Pew research agree with ISIS.
Indonesia whipped a woman for convorting with a man other than family last week - that was done in the village square in front of the mayor and the police.
Remember Indonesias genocide of the West Timorese?
Christian and buddhist villages are attacked and persecuted regularly with constant complaints that the authorities dont lend a hand to assist. 24% according to Pew Research believe women should be killed for adultery. Indonesia and Turkey as a shining example is a furphy.

 

Oh jeez, I never said they were shining examples and I guess that means 92% of the Turks disagree with Isis.

and...Indonesia did not whip a woman. Someone in Aceh whipped a woman. A place I know very well after having worked there for over a year. Aceh is the most hardline province in Indonesia but is not representative of the country as a whole.

Not sure of a West Timorese Genocide, do you mean East perhaps, the one commited by the Indonesian military. A better example to suit your agenda would be the massacres of Christians in Poso, Sulawesi etc.

 

I disagree. Another religion that can influence life, law and politics. Very much so in some places, less so in others. I've certainly partied hard with many 'muslims' to know that its not all hijabs and praying.

 

Modern day christianity has well and truly evolved since its Torah roots whereas Islam is stuck in their war time religious texts. With no new testament for balance.

Another massive difference is the comparison between their respective role models. Jesus was a hippy and Mohammed was a warlord.

Jesus didnt go around killing people. Mohammed did.

 

Yes and Ive slept with Irish catholic girls . Im not saying all muslims are bad. Im only talking about the ideology and my initial posts were regarding the issues every country faces when a large demographic of Islamic beliefs takes hold. Theres no country where this has not been a serious issue.

 

Im stepping out of this discussion now as these things tend to go around in circles. History is going to show what really happens, one way or the other.

 

Of this I very much agree, with the only caveat being that I am 50/50 on whether JC ever actually existed.

 

One more thing ill add which I've noticed here in France and The Netherlands when i lived there which is a big reason the integration of a large muslim population in to a secular society is doomed from the start.
Firstly, the religion itself forbids a Muslim to follow man made laws over word of allah.
Secondly, in any muslim community, australia included , the influential leaders of that community are always the religious leaders, the imams, the muftis. And guess what they preach? They preach the word of Allah. Now of course in that community there is a variety of levels of adherence to the book, as in any religion, however, if the leaders of that community are die hard religious leaders then there is always going to be a massive problem with integration. The immigrants from nth africa and mid east will find it very hard to assimilate when it can be so easy for them to slip in to a community and pick up where they left off in their own country.
The government, by pandering and appeasing to every demand of the imams, are actually defeating integration before it can begin.

 

if the Australian muslim community really found Sheik Hilaly's points of view as abhorrent and contrary to what they wish for in life as the Australian community do then how the hell has he maintained that position of leadership for over 2 decades. The mere fact he has retained that position with all he has stood for over that time is overwhelming evidence that a large muslim population in a seclar nation can only spell disaster and is proof that either :
A) the muslim community as whole entity have similar points of view
Or
B) that the "moderate Muslim" in a secular society has no power to force change because of the massive influence of the more ardent religious leaders in that migrant community.
The latter is what I believe to be true and is what the big hurdle and root cause of the issue is and will be a constant barrier to integration as long as the religion demands supremacy over non believers. As long as someone can pick that book up and point to reasons not to assimilate or respect constitutional law then it will be impossible for that religion to move out of the 7thC. Which will only result in seperatist unrest in western countries as the demographic grows more and more influential.
With these imams holding such sway over their communities what do we expect will start to happen as voting blocs grow? As more and more inner city members of parliament and municipal councils become islamic?
Its so easy to connect the dots. Do we know why its easy to connect the dots? Yes, because its already happening in europe and all we have to do is put down the text books and look at real world examples - instead of blindly clinging on to the narrative the multiculturalists beg us to believe.

 

He didnt exist lol. I was just referring to the stories about him. Or at least the stories about him that protestants recognize. Jesus in the apocrypha as recognized by the catholics actually tells of a story of Jesus killing some people. Im guessing thats why the mainstream left those books out of the bible.

 

you're giving the cult too much credit - still in the stone age, mate.

 

"A lack of respect for women isnt unique to islam. Cultures in africa, the indian subcontinent and the middle east routinely treat women poorly. Orthodox jews, yazidis, christians, muslims, hindus, sikhs all find excuses to control and inflict violence against women. (As do too many australian men.)"

This is because religions are made for men by men. And cultures are structured that way as well.