Crypto Sold my house and put it all into bitcoin.

No need to censor. It's fun to sit back and watch. Funny that those who post the most are those that aren't involved or buying but have very strong negative beliefs.

Personally I think anyone that believes Bitcoin is going to zero is a nutter. Volatile yes, going to zero no. Even the most **** of shitcoins like dog coins could not be killed off after years. Even LUNA refuses to die. To think Bitcoin will die off is pretty remote.

I can half understand why though, I mean it HAS been pronounced dead 455 times: Bitcoin Obituaries - "Bitcoin is Dead" Declared 400+ Times

Even if you're not a Bitcoiner or a crypto degen, a basic understanding of how economic cycles apply to Bitcoin is all you need to make money. Something that has consistent long term positive user and network growth is going to continue cycling. DCA a little bit during the down stage of the cycle to add some alpha to your portfolio (a very asymmetric bet) has paid off for me and many and probably will again. 5% is all you need. If you truly understand then it would be more than this.

Or you can just argue about why it's crap and spend alot of effort on something you're never going to truly learn.

 

I expected the inverse, that those buying would be the ones talking about it. And those with strong positive beliefs not those with strong negative beliefs. But I guess I'm naive, and the world is not like me. I don't normally dig into other debates that I'm not part of. E.g I think Bonds are a useless way let your money get eaten away by inflation but I've never jumped into a bond discussion to express my dislike.

But I get your point. It's a discussion forum and I overlooked the main theme and audience of propertychat. It's a huge leap from property to Bitcoin, but enjoyable to read nonetheless.

 

What I don't like about crypto is the very emotional attachment that seems to come with it by proponents. It's worse than a religion. Anybody who is getting too emotional about any investment is on a course set for failure.

BIS has a very detailed critique of cryptocurrency (putting in many better terms what has already been discussed here), and what could make a better future digital monetary system:

https://www.bis.org/publ/arpdf/ar2022e3.pdf

An interesting read if you have the time.

 

Quite simply: this is a sub-forum that named "InvestChat".
My strong beliefs, naturally mean I won't put my money on it.
But I also believe, as active participant of this community, to share my opinion with others to help them make a decision.

If people who believe crypto is a huge gamble stay quite and let the aggressive and overwhelming of positive PR to be the only voice - more people will fall into it.
If you're trying to find review on what car to buy, and all you see are great reviews and none negative, you'd likely gonna think the car is great and buy it. Only to discover it's a piece of ****, but people who found out it is stayed quite (probably so they can sell it off). I'm sure you won't be too happy.

I also never learnt the depth of the casino roulette.
I tend to not "learn" stuff that I deem risky.
Or in this case: I feel it's a scam. A pyramid / ponzi scheme. Haven't learnt anything about those as well - I just don't get into them.

 

Pretty much like watching train wreck unfolding infront of your eyes...

I'd be advocating in the same passion for people who over extend their loans to increase their REA portfolio.
Or people who believe the Pokies is "an investment" strategy.
Or giving all of your money to the neighbour of your sister, who promises 500% returns in a one month.

 

How to recognise a pyramid scheme?

• Emphasis on recruiting.
  
• No genuine product or service is sold.
  
• Promises of high returns in a short time period.
  
• Easy money or passive income.
  
• No demonstrated revenue from retail sales.
  
• Complex commission structure.

Pyramid Schemes | Investor.gov

So let's have a look at a scenario:
Let's assume that BTC (as an example of one crypto) has reached to the point where no one new will go into it. It reach ALL it's audience and all the fiat money is already in it.

In this case, if someone wants to sell their BTC and get money, they need to find someone within the community that will be willing to give them some other form of currency (fiat, gold, grains, sea shells or whatever).
Naturally, slowly slowly, if people are going out - there will be more who hold larger amounts of BTC, but when others trying to get out - their value of holding will go down, otherwise, someone will stay with all the BTC and nothing to show for (you can't eat BTC).

Other option, the whole community of BTC decides to "sell off" their BTC and recover their fiat money.
But how? Who will buy it?

Now let's take an example that was given in this discussion before, stocks. Tesla to be precise.
Let's assume Tesla stock is not purchased anymore by anyone. All the fiat money when into it.

All the Tesla stock holders (aka owners) decide to sell their holding.
Naturally, they cannot sell the stocks - they are useless. No one care about them anymore.
But their stocks are ownership of "Tesla".
They can defiantly sell the IP of producing batteries, the IP of producing cars, the IP of the AI for the cars, the machines in their factories, the real estate owned by Tesla and probably someone will be happy to buy the whole operation and knowledge.

So no. Crypto is not like stocks.

If anything, it's closer to IPOs or private shares in start ups.
However, start ups investment is a well know risky business. 99% of them never return the money.
The only reason there still investments in start ups is that the 1% gains are huge.
Crypto is like investing in 1 start up.

Even closer "investment" is putting your money on Black. With the difference that if the ball actually falls on Black - you have high assurance the casino will pay. It has backing.
With crypto, the only way you can have gains is if new people brining more fiat money.

Unless crypto becomes the global currency that all the people on Earth are using (not likely), it'll always be measured and "hold value" of some other fiat money.

 

Wow, you're really passionate about this. I haven't got the time or energy to refute this nonsense. All of your arguments have been destroyed time and again on many other platforms by people far more articulate than me.

But again, I encourage you to listen to the podcast I posted last night. Even just the first half hour.

I find it hilarious that you said :
"I'm not gonna listen to someone who makes a living out of BTC to tell me why BTC is great."
on a forum like this. Would you listen to someone who makes a living out of property investing tell you why property investing is great?

 

So you reply is that you don't want to reply?
Ok. Sure.

Like everything in life, one decides what they want to listen and learn and what they don't.
It's very natural.

I do not listen or read about investors in some remote mining communities, even if they swear it's a great opportunity.

My REA investment build on my belief that I want to self manage and I want easy access to my properties.
As such, I choose to learn from people who invest in similar profile to mine.
I don't care "how much money" can be done, I care about something that yield the result I'm after.

Crypto, for me, is all about greedy chase after monitory gains.
All the rest of the stuff they spew about it is rubbish to cover for that very simple reason.

If someone want to chase high gains, while taking the huge risk associate: by all means - crypto is awesome.

I'm writing to those who are trying to decide if it's fitting their risk profile before they go in.
As I said, I'd do the same for gambling and ponzi / pyramid schemes.

There's no doubt people made heaps of money in casinos and in different schemes.
In hindsight, some gained a lot, while most lost everything.

 

It will never be made illegal. It will be around. And in demand.
At what price though idk

 

yeah but if you had bought years ago when you were saying what you are saying, you would have made a tonne of money.

 

Although interesting that Bitcoin apparently had a 0.8 correlation with 'stocks' last month

Bitcoin's Shocking Stock Market Correlation Continues To Grow | Bitcoinist.com

 

Many can probably see the inflated points, but it is still thought provoking IMO.

 

I am not a particular fan of some posters, but there is good points raised here even by property investors I have some respect for, that are very valid.

Saying it is all nonsense is nonsense itself.

Pick apart the errors, it may help others.

No one here doubts you can make money from it, we are delving into fundamentals.

 

Bitcoin lovers and haters discussion is like religion debates between believers and non believers, this thread is a good example. Those who have a firm belief either way are unlikely to change their mind.

For those reading this thread and are sitting on the fence, have a look at: Myths - Bitcoin Wiki

You'd find a different perspective on what some of the anti-BTC crowd are arguing here, because those arguments against have been around since its inception. Looking at the headings here, you can see the response to most if not all of the objections against BTC.

• 1 Bitcoin is just like all other digital currencies; nothing new
• 2 Bitcoins don't solve any problems that fiat currency and/or gold doesn't solve
• 3 Miners, developers or some other entity could change Bitcoin's properties to benefit themselves
• 4 Bitcoin is backed by processing power
• 5 Bitcoins are worthless because they aren't backed by anything
• 6 The value of bitcoins are based on how much electricity and computing power it takes to mine them
• 7 Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (unlike some other things)
• 8 Bitcoin is illegal because it's not legal tender
• 9 Bitcoin is a form of domestic terrorism because it only harms the economic stability of the USA and its currency
• 10 Bitcoin will only enable tax evaders which will lead to the eventual downfall of civilization
• 11 Bitcoins can be printed/minted by anyone and are therefore worthless
• 12 Bitcoins are worthless because they're based on unproven cryptography
• 13 Early adopters are unfairly rewarded
• 14 21 million coins isn't enough; doesn't scale
• 15 Bitcoins are stored in wallet files, just copy the wallet file to get more coins!
• 16 Lost coins can't be replaced and this is bad
• 17 It's a giant Ponzi scheme
• 18 Finite coins plus lost coins means deflationary spiral
• 19 Bitcoin can't work because there is no way to control inflation
• 20 The Bitcoin community consists of anarchist/conspiracy theorist/gold standard 'weenies'
• 21 Anyone with enough computing power can take over the network
• 22 Bitcoin violates governmental regulations
• 23 Fractional reserve banking is not possible
• 24 After 21 million coins are mined, no one will generate new blocks
• 25 Bitcoin has no built-in chargeback mechanism and this is bad
• 26 Quantum computers would break Bitcoin's security
• 27 Bitcoin makes self-sufficient artificial intelligence possible
• 28 Bitcoin mining is a waste of energy and harmful for ecology
• 29 Shopkeepers can't seriously set prices in bitcoins because of the volatile exchange rate
• 30 Like Flooz and e-gold, bitcoins serve as opportunities for criminals and will be shut down
• 31 Bitcoins will be shut down by the government just like Liberty Dollars were
• 32 Bitcoin is not decentralized because the developers can dictate the software's behavior
• 33 Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
• 34 Bitcoin was hacked

 

Yawn... I read this thread, and now I need to get back to read my valuation reports of my QLD properties.

Just typing here to come back and read this thread again 5-10 years later (note to myself).

 

Missed one..bitcoin doesn't generate revenue ​

 

* "Bitcoin is backed by processing power"
"It is not correct to say that Bitcoin is "backed by" processing power......."

* "Bitcoins are worthless because they aren't backed by anything"
"One could argue that gold isn't backed by anything either....."
​

I stopped reading here.
I was afraid I might find that bitcoin is a proof Earth is flat.

Bitcoin transaction and the whole bitcoin network, by definition, is based on Proof Of Work, aka - compute processing power, where most of it a total waste (trying to solve problem that cannot be compute. It can only be guessed in the process of many random iterations).
Saying BTC is not "backed" by power is like saying "life is not backed by oxygen".

And than saying that Bitcoin is like Gold, but better and that Gold has no backing. Apart from it's use in industries and the fact it's a rare chemical element with huge amounts of applications. Even before the fact people like wearing it and look rich.
Quite hard to wear BTC.
The reality is that BTC backed by nothing but belief. You might be one of those that want to believe that belief system will stay forever, but trying to say BTC backed by anything else is a falsehood.

You were correct to say the argument is similar to those of religious people.
That's because the whole crypto idea is belief in something that does not exists outside the realm of computer systems or heavens, in the religious argument.

 

Well, it does not.
It generate gains.
The only way for Bitcoin to "generate" anything is to bring more in to be realised as gains.

To "generate" anything, you need something that creates something.
If it's a stock - it'll be product or service.
If it's REA - it's roof over people's heads.
If it's Gold - it'll be it's uses.

Can you tell me how Bitcoin, without any additional input of fiat into it - can generate revenue?