Smoke Alarms Australia

@Coconutwheels no qualification just a days training. I'm actually a fireman so had a fair idea already though. It's pretty boring work to be honest!

I know there is already a few companies going round in nsw so not sure how easy it would be to crack?

 

I just factor the $99 (or whatever the price is) into my cash flows as a cost of protecting me and my investment. At the end of the day, it's about liability - is $99 worth it to stand up in front of the judge and show them a certificate saying "Yes your Honor, I have certificate from a professional company who certified my smoke alarms as compliant with state legislation" or would you rather fight that battle without any evidence of compliance? If you're worrying about $99 when it comes to protecting you from financial ruin, I would politely suggest your priorities and understanding of property investment are askew and you shouldn't be investing in the first place.

There are very specific requirements state by state and it's a very easy and cheap way to ensure you are compliant and both your investment is protected should the worst happen, AND that your tenants are as safe as they can be. If you don't want to use a specific smoke alarm company, an electrician can provide the same service.

There are definitely no kick-backs from these smoke alarm companies for PMs (at least none from any of the companies I've seen). They are engaged on behalf of the landlord as part of the role of offering legislative protection. At the end of the day, you don't have to use them but you will still have to prove compliance if the need arises.

 

yeah not sure how hard to crack in, I started a handyman biz about 8 months ago and have a pretty good reputation with an agent that has about 1200 properties on their books, so may be chance to pick up a few and build on that.

What was the day's training you did, privatly run, or by the company?

 

Just run by the company. Travelled around with another technician. It was pretty basic not much too it.

 

Funny you mention about compliance....I received similar emails for my IP in NSW and on further check found out my strata does the Annual fire safety check twice a year and company doing the work provides compliance cert for entire block...the guy I was speaking was adamant that compliance cert won't help...even though it contains the my unit which is part of block.....I need separate compliance cert....what's the difference ???

 

@S0805 - AFAIK there is no additional requirement to get a separate certificate. The people who provide the service to the strata manager is complying with the Annual Fire Safety Statement (legislative requirement). Your smokey forms part of a monitored system which is connected to the Fire Indicator Panel.

A bi-annual check by a fire safety certifier reviewing the whole building would be more robust than the guy who just checks that your unit is working.

 

That is rubbish, if it was checked as compliant, it is compliant.

Everyone is spooked by this, but they are ok driving on the road at 100k with no dividing fence etc, in the rain, etc

All REAs must have been sent scary letters by the governing bodies.

And the pork chops that cause all this live 10 to a house and remove the alarms cause they are annoying.

Just walked through one that was tenanted and vacated, all bar 1 alarm removed, that one left has removed battery, this is the kind of thing were all spooked about, you can pay 99 a year and still not defeat idiots

PS @Andrew Hancock 99 seems expensive, should be like 50-70, even remote areas not asking 99 ?

 

What is the legislation in Victoria for these checks or compliance?

 

Actually, it's (unfortunately) completely correct. The compliance requirements for strata and the checks and certificates done for the strata are completely separate to the individual unit requirements by an individual owner. I've been around this merry-go-round a few times and unfortunately, individual units need to be checked separately. Not saying I agree with it, but I did dig quite deeply a few years ago (to save myself doubling up on costs) and that was the outcome. In short, one pertains to the building code and the other pertains to the tenancy requirements.

Regarding the $99 - in NSW this includes a (non-required but suggested) blind cord check. There are companies who will fulfill minimum requirements for cheaper but the more expensive ones will usually come back free of charge at the start of a new tenancy and include blind cords also.

 

See my post above. He is correct.

 

The last strata place we had in NSW, compliance for the building also mean compliance for each unit in that building.

So that is all that is required, is a check for operation, dates and comply with the rest of the law in regard to tenants, there is no need for it to be done twice.

As the firey also says above, it is a 1 day course, apart from any confusion on the date of the install, it is all basic stuff a PM could tend too, rather than this yearly thing many try and sign people up for.

Even if it is done the first time by someobody else, after that, really, is not any more complicated than buying a light globe and fitting it, but I would rather the PM do it over the tenant, not a third party yearly service.

The blind cords is another thing many panic over, the law is pretty clear on that too, again, not anything overly complicated.

I mean a child can stick a fork in a power point too, were becoming a cotton wool wrapped society, and each person and business that signs up to all this is contributing, yes, things need to be done and checked, but there also have to be some sense and reasoning.

 

Struggling to find it, downloaded volume from the link you provided. I think I'll stick to the MFB instructions thanks, I'm not building a new property.

 

I will clarify, although this seems pretty obvious.

Ask if they checked each unit as well for smoke alarm compliance.

I watched them do it once, it was each unit & it's own smoke alarm/s as well as the building and it's fire control and compliance. My fantastic PM at the time was a ok with that.

 

Hi @dabbler

Speaking as a fellow investor, I would strongly recommend you look further into this. As part of the building code checks the strata does check each individual apartment, but that check doesn't cover the legislative checks required by tenancy legislation. As I said, I dug quite deep into this as I was of the same opinion as you but it turned out I was incorrect. This was for my strata properties in NSW.

I agree it doesn't make sense and isn't warranted, but based on my extensive research, I don't believe you will be covered by asking for the building/strata compliance check if the need arises to prove compliance.

All the best.

Andrew

 

I know what your saying, there may be some grey etc.

The requirements look pretty basic to me. For instance, a LL or PM could just put in a new smoke alarm where only one is required, take a photo and test it. Battery could be replaced at inspections if worried. There is nothing technical, date, battery replacement and date & operation.

It is kinda like having medical training, your not going to be sued (successfully) if you try and assist someone in need and they pass away, you tried, you made an effort. You did not just ignore and walk away.

My thinking may be wrong & when your in front of a court, the pressure is on, but at the end of the day, the LL and PM could be in the coroners court anyway, even if you used a third party.

Part of my point is too, we can become crippled with PC and fear, it is not the same as being a pilot, or an aircraft engineer

 

You keep saying this.....but you don't cite legislation to prove it.

Thanks but i'll be sticking with strata inspections and saving my dough for other expenses.

 

My suggestion is that if the strata fire system has smoke detectors (wired) in each apartment and they are tested/inspected (each apartment) under the strata compliance process then that meets the tenancy requirements. Noting that not all strata fire systems have this.

Otherwise it is up to the landlord. Best practice would be additional detectors though.

 

As I said, it was a while ago and I don't remember the legislative reference. I'm not here to prove anything. It's not really my concern or problem whether you want to believe me or not, or whether you want to do your own research to find the legislation and make sure you're getting it right.

All I'm saying is that at the time, I DID do my own research and found that it didn't count. It remember reading the building code and fire regulations in conjunction with a call to the OFT. I remember it being quite clear once I dug a little deeper and as a result, I have them done separately. If you want to save your money for other expenses then that's your call! It was only some friendly advice.

 

Ok, I just called a good friend of mine who is a NSW firefighter and runs a smoke alarm company. Very up to speed with the regulations and has no reason to sell anything to me or tell me fibs. Some points to consider:

• At the end of the day, no one needs a compliance certificate. You just have to be able to prove that your property was compliant. This could be via the use of photos and appropriate documentation. It can't just be a photo of the alarm, it must show the serial number and the correct standard as well as the correct positioning in relation to the sleeping quarters. This is not something that your average PM or landlord can and does provide when things go wrong as usually they haven't done it properly.
• As a firefighter, part of their report post-job involves the question, "Was there a working smoke alarm?" and this information is provided to them requiring proof that the alarm was in fact working. This is usually done via a certificate and the insurance also asks for this proof. The burden is on the landlord to provide this proof.
• When a strata does a smoke alarm check, they will usually only do the minimum required percentage of units in that building to satisfy the requirements for the strata's insurance (which obviously varies from company to company). They don't usually check each unit individually (I now know for a fact my strata does 20% of units in the building after just speaking with the building manager and my strata insurance company - I was wrong earlier about them checking each one). This means that not all units in the building are checked and even for the ones that are, the certificate issued must specify the unit number with the appropriate check on serial number and standard done.
• Even if an individual unit is checked as part of the minimum percentage, usually, the strata certificate won't provide an individual certificate to a lot owner, rather a blanket "we've done a smoke alarm check on the building and it's compliant" certificate. This doesn't count.
• In his experience, 9 times out of 10 when they go in to do a smoke alarm check that has just been checked by strata, the smoke alarms are out of date and not done properly and require replacement.
• smoke detectors (back to base) do not qualify as compliant under AS3786 and there must be a smoke alarm in addition to a detector for the unit to be compliant. Many new strata buildings only have back to base detectors and that is all that is checked, meaning smoke alarms complying with AS3786 must also be installed.
• whilst technically a property manager could do the above job for you to ensure compliance, they are not insured to do so as it requires the operation of a ladder and working at heights. This is consistent with most states PM liability insurance for the agency.

Once again, I'm not an expert on this, merely passing on the message. As with anything, I believe it's better to be slightly over-insured rather than the other way around and for such a small amount, you have to ask yourself whether it's worth losing hundreds of thousands of dollars (or maybe sued for millions if someone dies) to save $80-100 a year. For those in doubt, maybe a quick phone call to your insurance company to ask what proof they would require to ensure no hurdles in the claims process as a minimum.

 

As the onus for servicing falls on the tenant outside of the initial test at the changeover of tenant, should the tenant be able to out in to such a service rather than the owner paying?