Shortage of Land Surveyors

Discussion in 'Development' started by lixas4, 23rd Dec, 2016.

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  1. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    There is likely to be a shortage of experienced licensed land surveyors in vic in the near future. The discussion below relates to surveyors in vic, but i believe its a country wide issue.

    The average age of licenced surveyors (LS) is over 55 years. There are currently just over 400 practicing LS's in vic. A survey conducted by the survey industry found that around 20% of LS's plan on retiring in the next 2 years, and around 40% in the next 5.

    At the moment there are around 140 trainee license surveyors, but the average time taken to complete the license traineeship is around 5 years. And there is not a massive amount completing the transition from trainee to fully licensed. I believe less then 10 have become fully licensed in the last 12 months.

    So for those who dont know what a licensed surveyor does, they basically measure and report on anything relating to a properties title boundary. Titles are gaurenteed by the government (title, but not title dimensions).

    Every subdivision and title re-establishment plan needs a LS to sign off on the plan.

    The surveying industry worked out there was going to be an issue about 10 years ago and there has been a big drive to increase the numbers coming through. The length of study (4 year degree, then min of 2 year license that takes average of 5 years to complete) and the income level once you are licensed has been a put off for increasing numbers. However, once the changing of the guard has eventuated, and there is not enough supply to meet demand, wages (and survey costs) should theoretically increase.

    If you have ever thought about getting into surveying this could be a good time.

    What are everyones thoughts? Is this only survey related or are there any other land development industries in the same boat? What generally happened in other industries?

    This is only my second post on pc, i have also written on the introductions section if your interested.
     
    Last edited: 23rd Dec, 2016
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  2. Sackie

    Sackie Well-Known Member

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    All i know is the land surveyors in Sydney are making an absolute killing atm.
     
  3. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    Hi leo2413, that is very interesting, i wouldnt say thats the case in melb
     
  4. Sackie

    Sackie Well-Known Member

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    Every time I needed to talk to a surveyor about some work they are always flat out and in many cases have work booked for 2-3 months in advance.
     
  5. Anthony416

    Anthony416 Well-Known Member

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    I found the same shortage situation. I was lucky with the last job, I found an old survey on the property and after a long search tracked the original surveyor down. He said he was retired but would not mind helping me out. He is 75! (and still registered).
     
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  6. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Here's a picture of a very short surveyor

    [​IMG]

    Now he has to carry his PI insurance for another 7 years.
     
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  7. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh we are booked up for all of jan and a bit of feb, but the margins are pretty tight, that seems to be the surveying way. Surveyors generally love what they do (like me), and its more about the service then the dollar. I asked the owner of the business i work at about why surveyors dont charge like other professions (accounting/lawyers/planners etc). He says it stems back to when a lot of surveyors used to work for the govt and service authorities. Then when they were privatised and a lot of surveyors where given redundancies, they bought some equipment and set up small family firms and worked from home. They charged enough to cover wages and kept doing what they loved. This was great for developers but helped cause a cost cutting fenzy that never fully returned to equilibrium. Having said all the above surveyors wont starve, the fees and incomes will never make you a millionaire but it will put food on the table and its an enjoyable career.
     
  8. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    What a stroke of luck!
     
  9. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    rushmore.jpg

    3 of these guys were surveyors.
     
  10. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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  11. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    DSCN4053.JPG and this guy
     
  12. Terry_w

    Terry_w Lawyer, Tax Adviser and Mortgage broker in Sydney Business Member

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    Why does it take so long to become a surveyor?
     
  13. dabbler

    dabbler Well-Known Member

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    lol...you would want to be asking for more than chainman rates for that :)
     
  14. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Unlike most lawyers, they have to attend the lectures about writing S88B instruments.
     
  15. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Terry, love your 'tips'.

    Thats a good question.

    Anyone can call themselves a surveyor. You could go and buy a total station and start doing surveying work. But anything to do with title boundaries needs a Licensed Surveyor to sign off on the plan.

    RMIT uni/tafe offer 3 surveying studies:
    1. One year tafe course going through the basics
    2. Two year tafe course going through a bit more then the above, both the tafe courses are more practical in nature.
    3. 4 Year honors degree which goes through all the different types of surveying - theory and practical. Also in the course are other related disciplines in the spatial sciences field, such as Mapping/Geographic Information Systems (GIS)/Remote Sensing/Photogrammetry/along with a bunch of engineering subjects (spatial maths/physics etc)/Planning.

    Surveying has traditionally been a mathematical based career. The introduction of modern computers and computer based equipment has meant that a lot of the maths is now covered. But when you study the degree you need to have an understanding of all the spatial mathematics. This is why it is a 4 year degree.

    There are 4 main types of surveying:
    1. Cadastral Surveying (this is the area Licensed surveyors work in, surveys relating to Title Boundaries).
    2. Engineering Surveying - Building setouts (gridlines)/Large construction/infrastructure surveying - railways/roads/pipelines etc
    3. Hydrographic Surveying - Underwater surveys
    4. Mining Surveying - Open pit/underground etc

    There is extra studies post degree required for some of the above.

    The field I am in is Cadastral Surveying. Although we do some engineering as well.

    In order to become a Licensed Surveyor (Cadastral), you need to have completed the degree, then do your License. The license is a minimum of 2 years although it takes an average of 5 years or so. This is because your license isn't like traditional studying, you don't go to school for it, it is projects based that you do in your own time. There are 4 projects:
    1. Difficult Urban Title Re-establishment Survey
    2. Difficult Rural Title Re-establishment Survey
    3. Subdivision - preferably land only, so the surveyor deals with the planning issues rather then an architect if its for DA
    4. Law Project - they give you a bunch of questions and you have 6 months to complete.
    At the end of this you have an interview with 3 members of the surveyors registration board of vic, who grill you to see if you know enough to be licensed. Surveyors regularly get asked to learn more in certain sections and come back at a later date.

    As points 1 - 3 are projects based with no timelimits, and generally they are weekend work and not through the business, it is put off. Also, there is a required level of knowledge to satisfactorily complete the projects. And it takes a long time to get that knowledge. You have to 'know' and understand what you are doing when you do the projects, it is not something you can rote learn and then forget about. You cant be 95% right when creating titles, the repercussions are way to costly, so the level of entry to become licensed is quite high.

    I think that answers it.
     
  16. dabbler

    dabbler Well-Known Member

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    Then you get to work out in the sun, in the heat, and if doing regional work in over grown areas, chopping your way through bush. From what I see, even on the forum here, the check survey is going the way of the dodo.

    In reality, what is the normal income roughly if you work for someone in the city and your licensed ?
     
  17. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    @dabbler - do you require instructions on how to Google? You might have to Google that too ;)
     
  18. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure about other states but in vic below are rough incomes:

    Newly licensed - 70-90k
    License with 10+ years experience - small firm 90-120k.
    If in larger firm then depends on your role, if you have more of a management/large client interaction role then you can earn a lot more, range would be around 90-250k.

    If you own a small surveying business, then income can increase, 120-250k. Work for yourself surveyors between 100-180k.
    Owners of the larger firms same as any large businesses out there.

    All the above are for Licensed Cadastral Surveyors, the other types of surveying have different income levels.

    Working outdoors is the best part, its what attracted me to surveying, we generally work outdoors when its nice, and indoors when its not. Most jobs, it takes about a day to do a field survey and day in the office to draft the plan. So it keeps it interesting, working on lots of smaller different projects and never on one for too long. And at our firm we do jobs all around vic.

    What do you mean by 'going the way of the dodo'?
     
  19. dabbler

    dabbler Well-Known Member

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    Extinct, I see lot of people talking about many things, building and pest still often used, conveyancers often used instead of solicitors many times, I think this is the first thread on surveyors & only a few posts I have seen were people trying to work out what they bought etc, never hear....can someone tell me a surveyor for a check survey before going unconditional, it is like insurance, many do not think of it till there is a problem.

    Thanks for reply, good to hear from someone in the business.

    You can probably tell I do not like the outdoors, skin not liking the sun :)


    Where do I find instructions on how to use google to find google instructions, what about if I like Altavista or Hotbot or Yahoo ? lol Sometimes it is better to listen to those in the know, rather than some of the rubbish out on the ether
     
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  20. lixas4

    lixas4 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh i agree, not many people getting check (title re-establishment) surveys done prior to purchase, we hardly get any requests at work. My advice to my mates who are purchasing a place, is to grab a long tape and measure between your fences, and make sure its close to the distances on your title, if its not (more then 100-200mm difference) then give us a call for survey. But if you are worried a survey is the only way to know if the fences are in the correct position (even if they are the correct distance, they might not be in the correct position).
    Points to measure- if paling fence, where the palings meet the post. Non paling, guess the mid point.
     
    Last edited: 24th Dec, 2016
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