RCD and Smoke alarm testing

Discussion in 'Property Management' started by smallbuyer, 22nd Jan, 2018.

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  1. G..

    G.. Well-Known Member

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    Not always true. My smoke alarms have hard-wired bases and the alarms slot into them making electrical contact with the base like a plug/socket arrangement. It is a simple task to slide off the old alarm and then slide a new one (of the same brand) onto the same base, this does not require an electrician as there is no wiring involved. The manual for the alarms also tells how to test the internal batteries (basically, turn the circuit breaker off so that the green AC LED goes out, then test the alarm with the test button).

    I'm not sure how an electrician is more qualified than anyone else to determine the locations of smoke alarms. Yes, you need a sparky to do the hard-wiring, but I had absolutely no training specific to smoke alarms when I went through my electrician's apprenticeship.

    Queensland legislation actually specifies how the smoke alarm should be tested prior to the lease, basically push the test button and listen for noise (if no test button, then follow manufacturer's instructions - but these are normally the back to base ones and will need the fire service provider to perform the test)

    Whenever I do my rental inspections I have a spot on my check-sheet for the smoke alarms "present", "clean", "green AC LED on", and "sounds when test button is pressed". If there is ever a need to prove this then I have kept the paper trail, as well as all of my tenants being familiar with the smoke alarm going off every inspection (I warn them first).

    That's not what my local fire brigade (NSW) told me when I asked late last year. They said that there was nothing wrong with the ionisation ones and that I should replace them with PE detectors only when they expired (10 years).
     
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  2. marmot

    marmot Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that property managers have to deal with many properties, how many would an average PM look after ??
    Some sorts of smoke alarms dont have test buttons ,mainly back to base alarm systems, and interconnected systems found in new apartment complexes, shoving a stick in them is a recipe for disaster , and its probably a good idea to use a step ladder. For monitored home alarm systems its always necessary to contact the alarm company first, you also need the code to disable the alarm, and the test is sometimes done through the display panel.
    We have 3 smoke alarms at our place , one hard wired back to base and 2x 9v smoke detectors , they all look quite similar and most would not know which is the back to base system .
     
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  3. Tink

    Tink Well-Known Member

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    We are with a new PM for a rental property and a new tenant is moving in; they want a certificate to show 2 x RCD's and hardwired smoke alarms, however we've nothing apart from the REA monthly statement (no copy of invoice).

    Lesson learnt here if we need a certificate

    Trying to contact the electricians that did the work 2-3 yrs ago
     
  4. Tink

    Tink Well-Known Member

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    We recently changed Property Managers and the new PM wants a copy of the RCD Certificate

    We had the second of 2 RCD's and Hardwired alarms completed in 2011 and provided the statement copy of works to the new PM, however they have said its too old and they really need to get this checked and a certificate issued annually as per recommendations

    They want to arrange asap.

    I'm thinking no problems for this time, but not annually?
     
  5. Pauldos

    Pauldos Member

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    Are you guys for real? Do you trust your PM to adequate test and diagnose faults with smoke alarms and RCD's, do you think he knows if they are adequately spaced from walls, doorways and bulk heads or they are 12v photoelectric or even ionization alarms ( no longer permitted). There is a reason trained/ qualified people check your alarms and supply testing certificates. Is your PM going to sign off that everything tested okay battery's were replaced, decibel readings are correct and smoke testing passed. I wouldn't expect them to sign off and take any liabilities for unqualified work.

    Also there is a reason PM's don't climb up ladders, I'd prefer them to keep track on my property's then be out running around testing everyone alarms.

    Stop being tight asses get an electrician to test your property's, it's tax deductible and I know i'll sleep better at night.
     
  6. Redwing

    Redwing Well-Known Member

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    No denying, RCD's and Smoke Alarms are important to have in the property and testing is crucial to ensure they work, it needs to be done, however the systems are designed for everyday home owners to use and operate, its not rocket surgery

    If there is an issue - get it checked by an electrical contractor.

    II wonder if we will be testing and tagging household electrical items next :rolleyes:

    The Government Housing Authority WA has this fact sheet and instruction for their tenants on

    How to test your RCD
    • Press the TEST button on the RCD. You should hear a click The lever will flip downwards to the ‘off’ position.
    • This means that the device is working and the power has been turned off
    • Flip the lever upwards to ‘on’. You may need to push firmly. This will turn the power back on.

    Department of Fire and Emergency Services recommends the following smoke alarm maintenance routine:
    • Testing once per month to ensure the battery and the alarm sounder are operating.
    • Check the smoke alarm for any build-up of dust and cobwebs and clean with a vacuum cleaner at least every six months.
    • Vacuum with a soft brush attachment around the smoke alarm vents.
    • Use a surface insect spray around the smoke alarm to prevent insects nesting inside.
    • Replacing batteries annually (mains powered smoke alarms generally have back-up batteries).
    • Smoke alarms should never be painted.
     
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  7. marmot

    marmot Well-Known Member

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    Because most appliances around the home are not life saving devices.
    And as most states are realizing , many early hard wired smoke alarms were fitted up to 10 years ago and are coming up to the end of their life, with many investors just burying their heads in the sand when it comes to upgrading .
    Many of the early ones dont even have the installation date written on them.
    That why many states are turning to a paper trail with yearly inspections, and someone has to sign off on the paperwork.
    You can delegate the work to someone else, but ultimately the property owner is responsible .
     
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  8. SarahD

    SarahD Well-Known Member

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    As a PM I wouldn't be comfortable signing off on your alarm being compliant and I am more familiar with the laws surrounding type, placement and testing required than most PM's (due to an unfortunate fire or two over the years)! At the end of the day, the testing is something that the insurance company appreciates in the event of a fire and it's another way to cover yourself as an owner in this time of liability. One thing I have done in the past is issue a slip to tenants with their routine inspection letter, something for them to sign and leave on the bench which states that they have tested the alarm and replaced the batteries as per the requirements under legislation. This is then kept on file as something to cover us a bit if anything went wrong.

    At the end of the day, if the company is offering a good deal and it is a tax deduction for you then I don't see any good reason not to.
     
  9. G..

    G.. Well-Known Member

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    Test, of course. The legislation actually tells you the test method (basically, if it has a test button then push it and see if it makes a noise). If you can't trust a PM to follow that, then would you really trust them to manage your property.

    As for diagnosing faults, nobody has suggested that a PM do this. I'm not sure why you threw that in.

    You seem to be confusing installation with testing. Fair enough to call in a specialist to verify that they are compliant initially (and to tell you the date that they will need replacing) and then to replace them when the time comes (or if they fail testing), but regular ongoing testing, and testing prior to a new tenancy is as simple as pushing the button and listening (as defined by the legislation).

    For new installs, yes, but you will find that for most repeat tests they will simply follow the minimum requirement to push the button and listen. They can then honestly say that it has been tested according tot he legislation and there is no reason at all to bother doing anything more.

    Sorry, what are you talking about?
    Are you seriously saying that you aren't capable of signing a document saying that you have replaced a battery, or that the alarm made a noise when you pressed the button?
    Are you trying to tell me that smoke alarm testers all go around with decibel meters taking readings (remember, the legislation specifies a basic "push test button and listen for noise" as all that is required)?
    And as for "smoke testing", again, not required by the legislation (maybe some testers will do this, but most likely won't)

    No ladder is required to test a smoke alarm. A stick or piece of dowel will do (I would suggest a self adhesive rubber foot on the end so as to not scratch the test button). The manual for the smoke alarms I use says that the test button is specifically designed to be operated with a broom handle.
    The British Fire Brigade even supply a finger on a stick to elderly people so that they can test their smoke alarms.
    Hand on a stick to test fire alarms
    And advise your clients to get long life (lithium or rechargeable) batteries when the alarms are replaced, so battery changes won't be required. Your qualified installer will be able to assist with this.

    I'd prefer to pay someone who's already at the property doing an inspection to take an extra 30 seconds to press a button rather than an extra person who will factor in travel time just to do the same thing.

    Yes safety is paramount, but once you have ascertained that the system is compliant and know when replacement is due, I cannot see any safety benefit in employing a dedicated smoke alarm tester when compared to a PM simply pushing the button and noting the result during inspections.

    You say that as if "tax deductible" = "the entire amount is refunded". Tax deductible expenses still cost us money. It's "tax deductible" in the same way that a pay cut is "tax deductible". I don't mind paying tax, it means that I've made money!
    I would call not spending money in a case where there is zero benefit as "prudent" rather than "tight arse"!

    But seriously... If a PM were to tell me that I had to pay for testing as the PM was not prepared to test them during inspections, then that would have some effect on whether I choose that PM to manage my properties. But if a PM were to tell me that I have to pay because they were not permitted to test them during inspections, then I would consider that PM to be dishonest.
     
    Last edited: 26th May, 2018
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  10. marmot

    marmot Well-Known Member

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    If you are charging someone in excess of $20,000 a year to rent an apartment or house and you cannot even afford to get the alarm system professionlly tested annually($100-$200) , you should probably stick to the share market.
    We have been doing it for years and I have never understood what the big issue that many investors have with it.
    I am assuming that some investors have gone out and spent lots and lots of someone elses money with a real crappy yield and then complain bitterly about the cost of running the property.
    If you went and stayed in a hotel somewhere would you be quite happy to stay there if they just decided it was to expensive to get their fire alarms and lifts not checked out on a regular basis.
     
    Last edited: 26th May, 2018
  11. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    Firstly, if you are going to pay a professional to install, why not also pay them $69 a year to come out as many times as necessary to test, replace faulty (their cost), and certify the alarm as being compliant? That is a small cost.

    And I've not read the regulations, but my understanding (Qld) is that regardless of having a long life battery, the batteries must be replaced prior to every lease renewal. This might be changed or about to change with the new rules (but they don't really apply for several more years).

    And you do need ladders to change batteries. We've lugged ladders around for years before I saw the light and engaged a professional company to do this for us. I used to scratch the date onto the paint of the battery because even in a fire, that scratched in date will be visible.

    As a self-manager, I thought I had it all covered until we did engage the professionals, and then found out we needed extra units, or some units were in the wrong places in some houses and that some of our units were past their "use by" dates. That was a wake up call for me.

    And most importantly, if you pay a professional, they have a duty of care and they also have some "skin in the game" if they get it wrong. They have insurance should they get it wrong.

    For less than one fifth of a week's rent per house per year, we save ourselves so much time, ladder lugging and get peace of mind. Simples!
     
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  12. redsunsea

    redsunsea New Member

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    Thanks for the information, Real-Spark. We have been paying (through our agent) for annual checks. We have been happy to do this in the past, however, the agent has now engaged a different company. The new company is now saying we need an extra alarm upstairs and that the one which already exists needs to be relocated due to it being in "dead air space". They will not issue a compliance certificate unless we agree to that work ($288 plus the inspection fee of $99). I have checked the WA regulations and believe we are compliant. Do you know if it is a legality that we have to have a compliance certificate each year? Thanks.
     
  13. Phoenix Pete

    Phoenix Pete Well-Known Member

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    Property managers manage tenancies. They don't carry out repairs in general and certainly shouldn't be getting up on chairs or ladders to do what a licenced tradesperson should do. Property managers don't get paid enough to have the burden of smoke alarm testing added to their already burgeoning workload. Smoke alarm testing is not just about pressing the 'test' button. All that proves is that power is going to the smoke alarm. Artificial smoke is needed to test smoke alarms. Smoke alarm sensors get dust which could render the alarm useless in a fire.
     
  14. Phoenix Pete

    Phoenix Pete Well-Known Member

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    As stated above, pressing the button and hearing the alarm go off only proves that there is power going to the smoke alarm. It does not prove that the smoke alarm will work in a fire situation as the sensors may be dirty, clogged or too old.
     
  15. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    As a self-manager who has always been scrupulous about testing the smoke alarms, recording it on leases and entry condition reports etc, I used to think this was such a simple thing. Until my son (who was working as a property manager at the time) suggested strongly I hand this to a professional.

    I did that and found, to my horror, that some units were past their "use by" date, some were in the wrong position and some houses needed more units to be compliant.

    I now pay $69 a year and some years the alarms have been checked up to three times depending on lease renewals, break leases and other circumstances. I don't have to cart a ladder to our (high ceilinged) houses any more, and I have a company with an insurance policy if they get it wrong.

    Had something happened when I was doing this myself, and my insurer decided I'd got it wrong, I'd not like to know what would happen to my insurance cover.

    This is such a small figure per house per year, is claimable against the income and gives me peace of mind.

    I don't really understand the dozens of threads about it. If you don't want to pay someone to do this, you don't have to. But you don't have to try to make out that this service is a rip off or that people using it are foolish or throwing away cash.

    And on the blind cord testing... I cut off the cords. Simple. If I put blinds up again, I'll go for roller blinds with no cords.
     
  16. Phoenix Pete

    Phoenix Pete Well-Known Member

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    I used to believe (like some contributors in this thread) that pressing the test button was all you needed to do to test the alarm... that is.. until a smoke alarm company came to my own home and did that test to both my smoke alarms (they did sound off) and then the alarms were taken off the ceiling and put under a plastic dome and artificial smoke blown in under the dome.

    Both smoke alarms did not sound off. I said to the tester: "So all this time I've been pressing the button, changing the batteries.. and the alarms would not go off in a fire". The alarm tester said "Yep".
     
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  17. qak

    qak Well-Known Member

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    For $99/year we do it for peace of mind. We had a tenant who came home 'under the influence' who put a pot of pasta on the stove and promptly fell asleep on the lounge under the front window.

    Neighbour heard the smoke detector, called 000 and evacuated. They could see the tenant through the front window (& the smoke) but she was unresponsive. Fireys broke down the front door, pulled her out and dealt with the burning pot (as that was all that actually on fire at that stage).

    Given the house is in a row of heritage terraces, the potential for a disaster affecting not just our property, but the neighbours, and multiple lives, was real - that's why the FB sent 5 engines and 3 ambulances. Imagine if your insurance company refused to pay because they felt you hadn't taken reasonable care to check that the smoke detectors actually worked? For under $100/year?

    (Just to complete the details, tenant was very apologetic, by the end of the following day there was no visible smoke damage and tenant paid for replacement front door & associated - about $1K. Neighbour (who had called us about it, we called PM who knew nothing) were most unimpressed - there had been other issues with 'substances' - we were too, but said, look it was an accident, it could have happened to anyone, blah blah. 2-3 weeks later the tenant did it again with almost identical results :mad:. We had the PM move her out ...)
     
  18. Shogun

    Shogun Well-Known Member

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    What is a fair price to get a faulty RCD changed in metro area (in this case Perth) ?
    I believe $25 part and 5 minutes work once at meter box.

    In WA (rentals) is their any requirement to change smoke detectors after a period of time 10 years?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: 23rd Feb, 2019
  19. Rolf Latham

    Rolf Latham Inciteful (sic) Staff Member Business Plus Member

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    Im sort of amazed at the general focus here

    whats someone's life worth ? it only takes on stuff up

    ta
    rolf
     
  20. Shogun

    Shogun Well-Known Member

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    RCD are a $25 to $30 price to buy. Lets say $125 for first half hour (5 minutes to fit when at meter box according to HV electricians at work) so $150 fitted.
    I am getting quotes in the range $150 to $250.

    My PMs preferred electrician quoted $365 to replace RCD. Both seem a little shocked when I told them to stick quote where sun doesn't shine. This is after they took $99 off me for "safety certificate" but did not supply dates on smoke detectors or milli seconds for RCD circuits to trip.

    As to smoke detectors I believe they might only have a 10 year life. Hence the question

    Worth a read Electrical Safety Certificate for a rental property | PRF Electrical, Perth WA

    Advice on WA government website suggests owner or tenant should trip RCD and smoke detectors every 3 months