Plumbing issues, probably over 50K damages + Help please, whose responsible, insurance/plumber or me

Hi, this is my first post here – please be kind.

Knowing next to nothing about plumbing, in desperation due to some complex/costly issues, I Googled and came up with some v. informative info on this forum so thought I’d ask if you could please help me.

I’ve got a few insurance claims on the go on behalf of my mother who is nearly 90 as I rent my home from her. The claims are to do with water that has leaked from my upstairs bathroom down through the ceiling and out the sides of the air con vents to the ground floor. The ceiling over the main living area downstairs is now sagging (lighting has been disconnected) and ceiling will probably will have to be replaced along with all the tiled floor in the upstairs bathroom and no doubt everything next to it including the shower, hand basin/cabinet etc and, whatever is in between – a Major job as you can imagine which, my brother (who used to be a carpenter) estimated could well cost $50,000 upwards.

This issue originally start when the tap (or what’s described as a ‘mini ****’ on the plumbers invoice) that is at the base of the toilet in upstairs bathroom had a slow leak which I believe caused a minor crack in the tiled floor as that is where the water was running (towards the bathroom floor drain hole) at the end of 2020.

Mum got plumbers to come out to fix the issue and from her memory, paid them cash and thinks she got no invoice/receipt (I recalled they took photos of mould between the floors).

At the time I tried to interpret my building insurance policy and misinterpreted it and thought I wasn’t covered; I thought the issue minor, wasn’t advised otherwise by the plumbers who I recall saying something to the effect that “hopefully it will just dry out” and so I didn’t think further on it.

As I never use that bathroom, I didn’t notice the crack in the tiled floor later spread into many wider cracks; also because most the cracks were under a mat.

The leak caused water stains on the ceiling downstairs that I had painted over and thought that was the end of it.

Later, a friend had a long shower in that bathroom after which I noticed more water stains on the ceiling downstairs but in a different area to before; this time under the shower. (the shower wasn’t used after that).

When the insurance company came out a few months ago to investigate the first issue I pointed out to their plumber the other issue of a leak from the shower of which he took photos of the water marks on the ceiling below and tested the problematic shower; he told me there was a leak in the wall from behind the shower tap (was only when the tap was in use)

Prior to that, I had thought the leak was coming from the floor of the shower which I’d read in my insurance policy wasn’t covered by insurance so I didn’t want to bother them as I thought I couldn’t claim; it’s only recently dawned on me I probably am entitled to claim.

Recently I engaged the same plumbers Mum had come here before for the toilet tap leak to come and fix the problematic shower tap; aside from that my only request was that the plumber replace washers in sink taps in same bathroom. I understood the plumber had to do ‘leak tests’ and the plumber explained that he would be sending photo’s/video’s to his boss.

10 days after this plumbing job, water again started coming through the downstairs ceiling and I found that the hot water (bendy) hose under the sink where the plumber had replaced the washers on the taps above that I’d asked him to, was leaking at the connection near the wall.

Again, I hadn’t been using this bathroom, the door to the bathroom had been closed so I have no way of knowing when exactly after the plumber came, this issue started.

I’m guessing that the leak pressure test which was done at "700kpa" (Normal house pressure is 500kpa – so I’ve read… ) - somehow aggravated this hose that had never been a problem before and was perhaps what started as a slow drip, became bigger over time.

When we noticed the leak coming through the downstairs ceiling, we also noticed the ceiling became wet and saggy with new dents / marks etc of which we have video and photos. The ceiling was also uneven when we placed a level on it of which we also took photos.

Had the insurance company dealt with the cracks in the tiled floor in a timely manner, this probably wouldn’t have been such an issue as the water probably would have just run into the drain hole instead of through the cracks in the floor. (i understand insurance companies have been very busy due to recent floods)

Initially I didn't think the plumber might had been at fault in this matter and said as much when I phoned the plumbing company after paying the bill.

I phoned the plumbers as I thought the bill seemed high and then noticed that I was charged for bathtub washers; as there had been no discussion around changing bathtub washers (which, the bath btw has only been used a handful of times) and, as I hadn’t noticed the plumber doing anything near the bath, I thought there must be a mistake so this was the reason I phoned the plumber.

The Logistics Manager returned my call and to my query re the bath tub washers, he responded something to the effect that ‘everything is linked in the bathroom, hoses etc and so everything in the bathroom needed to be serviced’. He also added that the washers were only ‘$23’ a set.

As a secondary thought, I then mentioned the hose under the sink that had leaked and the Logistics Manager stated that the plumber should also have serviced that. I said “well I don’t know, I’m not a plumber” – so in retrospect I now think that the Logistics Manager was admitting fault on behalf of his firm/he’s plumber but then he started (to what seemed to me) ‘back peddling’ and the conversation changed.

I brought up the subject of the initial problem which occurred at the end of 2020 (when the ‘mini ****’ under the toilet leaked causing cracks in the tiled floor) and the Logistics Manager told me he had record of that service along with a photo which he kindly sent me (he was unable to provide and invoice as Mum had paid them cash.

Later I noticed something else, that alarmingly something I’d said to the plumber had been misinterpreted and then written incorrectly on the invoice; the plumber stated on the invoice:“look at tapware boyfriend has installed - tapware keeps popping off”

This was not correct; I’d mentioned to the plumber that in my ensuite bathroom, my partner had changed the taps (handles only) and one of them had popped off a few times.

I’d also mentioned that my partner had done some work on the taps in the shower the plumber was working on but I didn’t go into detail and as it turns out, as I thought after double checking with my partner, he states all he’d done in that shower was change the washers. (that shower had barely been used whereas mine was in regular use and the handles had become brittle so needed changing; to my knowledge, the tap handles in the problematic shower are the originals)

If you’ve bared with me for this long, thank you. Below is the relevant parts of a copy of the most recent invoice from the plumber:

Scope of works :

• potential shower breech leak behind wall

• pressure test and asses

look at tapware boyfriend has installed - tapware keeps popping off

• Investigated leaking shower breach in hallway bathroom

• removed hand held/ shower head

• fitted test gauge on 19 coming from wall

• Turned on water

• Isolated water at shower taps

• Test failed noticed water around tap spindle

• removed water proofing and gyprock from around both hot and cold spindles

• Tested breach again 700kpa

• test failed water leaking on hot between tap spindle and breach

• isolated main water to house

• Removed taps and serviced

• turned on water to house t

• tested

• left test on

• serviced basin taps

• serviced bath taps

• returned to test on shower test read 700kpa

• silicone gap between tiles and tap spindles

• fixed trim back on to all taps

• tested commissioned

• normal operation restored

Description Quantity Unit Price Amount


Tap washer service kit 3 @ $23.00 = 69.00

SOUDAL K&B NEUTRAL SILICONE CLEAR 300G (EA) 1 10.07 10.07

Teflon/loctite 567/loxeal single use charge 1 7.00 7.00

wipes/rags charge 1 7.50 7.50

Subtotal 413.57

Total GST 41.36

Total AUD 454.93

………………………

Below is a statement from the original issue from the plumber:

- inspect leaking bathroom in ground floor ceiling

- daughters house down the back

9/9/20

• replace mini cocks , Flexi and cover plates in both toilets

• service laundry taps

• remove ducting below bathroom to inspect ceiling space for leak

• inspect all water points in bathroom

• flood test shower and bathroom floor

• reinstate ducting

• silicon broken tiles around back of toilet

• clean site

• advised client
..........

I have tried to phone about this (the lady who answered the phone remembered me asking by referring to me as the person she'd spoken to previously as they'd 'serviced my whole bathroom'.)

I have also sent a detailed email to the company 4 days ago asking them to phone me including expressing my concerns and asking for advice as to whether the substitute hose my partner has fitted would be safe but have had no response as yet)

 

Have you got a TLDR version?

 

Really think you should focus on getting things fixed instead of worrying about a $400 invoice.

have you called insurance now? This has been a 18 month saga?

 

What was the question ?

It isn't the job of tiles/grout to stop water getting through to downstairs, that's why bathrooms are wetsealed first.

 

What's the question exactly?

It was a hard to follow story, but my takeaway is that you should probably pay more attention to maintaining the house that you're living in?

 

''IF'' your partner only changed the washers then you may have problem's with the insurance as i'm trying to understand the question..

 

Insurance only pays our for a specific event - e.g. a broken hose not a slow leak

The plumber probably did a reasonable job but isn't responsible what seems to be a whole lot of issues. You have to be there with the tradie if you want to really understand what is going on.

It sounds like you need a new bathroom or at least that part that should be waterproofed. The cheap option could be someone like megasealed who could be useful in giving you an idea of what is wrong though you would have to also sort out any leaks behind the waterproofing of course.

 

I know it's a lot to take in, but as I said, I do have claims in with the insurance company that have been ongoing for some time now; they are aware of the shower issue. I never said I was worried about the cost of the invoice although I do think it excessive. I am concerned that the pressure test the plumbers did might have caused the flexi hose to leak and am wondering why, as they said their plumber should have serviced the whole bathroom and, because they charged me for changing tap washers in the bath which I didn't request, why then didn't they check the flexi hose that was connected to the tap washers in the sink that they changed, that then leaked all the way to downstairs and made the downstairs ceiling even worse.

 

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your feedback and the suggestion of megasealed.

My insurance policy states:
"8. Escaping Water What is covered? Loss or damage to the insured property caused by escaping water that occurred:
• slowly over a period of time and you could not reasonably have been aware of it."

which is why I am hoping I'm covered for the original leak.

I was there when the tradie was working, he didn't mention anything about changing bath tub washers, it wasn't requested, nor did I notice him doing any work there which is why that part of the bill came as a surprise to me.

I am concerned that the pressure test the plumbers did might have caused the flexi hose to leak which has further damaged the downstairs ceiling as the leak ran through to downstairs and am wondering why, as management said their plumber should have serviced the whole bathroom and, because they charged me for changing tap washers in the bath which I didn't request, why then didn't they check the flexi hose that was connected to the tap washers in the sink that they changed, that then leaked all the way to downstairs and made the downstairs ceiling even worse.

 

You are nitpicking small details. Focus on the repair not trivial things like 20c washers. Braided flexi hoses are well known to fail. Everyone knows this (or should). There are types with valves which will stop flow if they leak which cost more. Or better quality ones, which cost more.

Plumbers dont "service" a house. You would blame them for ripping you off if they did. They fix what you asked. This is maintenance and the responsibility of each owner.

Insurance wont fix the subsequent damage until the leak issues are completely fixed to THEIR acceptable standards.

 

Replace"insurance company" with 'I' in the first sentance and you get the picture.

OP essentuly did their best to avoid any finantial outlay fixing obvious issues over a long period of time by painting over water damage, puting mats over cracks, paying tradesmen cash and not enguaging insurance at the begining.

 

Methinks that I'll wait for the movie.

(So, lack of maintenance and failed/no membrane, no inspections after work completed.

A claim for a burst hose might be possible but if you live there and haven't checked up on the leak then it's likely that the claim will be rejected as you did nothing to ensure that the faults were fixed).

 

There's a few questions in there but one of the ones that is simpler to explain is that I am concerned that the pressure test the plumbers did might have caused the flexi hose to leak and am wondering why, as management said their plumber should have serviced the whole bathroom and, because they charged me for changing tap washers in the bath which I didn't request, why then didn't they check the flexi hose that was connected to the tap washers in the sink that they changed, that then leaked all the way to downstairs and made the downstairs ceiling even worse.

Regarding maintaining my house, I am not a builder or a plumber obviously and wasn't made aware by the plumbers when they fixed the original leak that there was any need for concern; I have an en-suite and no reason to go into the problem bathroom and wasn't told to keep an eye on things so I had no way of knowing that cracks were spreading under the bathroom mat.

 

They don't test the hose, it's tested at the wall/pipe.

Flexible hoses are prone to fail and should be replaced every 5-10 years or when showing signs of fatigue.

 

Hi OP

The above statements you made are highly suggestive that the majority of the liability lies with you to be honest. There was a leak, there were clear signs of the cause and you even saw the effects but you "painted over" them, ignored them, and now you are suffering the consequences.

Not sure that you can lay the blame on the plumbers, let alone insurance.

 

I didn't just paint over and ignore the issue; I had the plumbers come out, repair the leak and the small crack on the tiled floor, after that I thought that was all that needed doing (I wasn't advised otherwise) so painted where the water marks were on the ceiling

 

50K upwards was just a figure my brother who used to be a carpenter gave me; I assume he meant pretty much all you mentioned.

It's been 3.5 months since I put in my first claim with my insurance company, another shortly after that. They sent out an assessor, a plumber, a roofer for another issue, an electrical makesafe to disconnect my lighting in main living area. I have got no answers from my insurance company; they just thank me for being patient and explain they are overwhelmed due to the recent floods.

Now with the more recent leak due to the flexi hose, insurance company said they need to send out another assessor which they said could take 6-8weeks from now; I guess then I'll have to then wait for that assessor to send out another plumber, I don't know...

I did point out that had I been able to address and fix the initial problem (the cracks on the tiles) either with compensation from insurance or doing it independently, that then I wouldn't have had this last issue as the water from the leaking flexi hose would have just run down the floor drain instead of through the cracks in the tiles into the ceiling and so on.

Insurance informed me I'm not allowed to start with any unauthorised repairs as it would probably void any claim I might have. I've also been told not to use that bathroom at all.

 

That is actually a good sign. My advice is to wait and follow the insurer’s instructions.

 

Thanks, a ray of hope I'm not overly hopeful but I've got my fingers crossed.