NSW NSW Changes to Smoke alarm legislation

Discussion in 'Property Management' started by Handyandy, 27th Mar, 2020.

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  1. Handyandy

    Handyandy Well-Known Member

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    I had been expecting this for a while but just received notification from some PM's. Among all the other changes which are draconian one of the big changes is that it is no longer the responsibility of the tenant to change the battery and this puts the responsibility slap bang on the landlord.

    "If the repair involves replacing a removable battery
    in a battery-operated smoke alarm or a removable
    back-up battery in a hardwired smoke alarm, your
    tenant can choose to change it.
    They must notify
    you if and when they do this.

    You must also check the smoke alarms annually
    to ensure they are working.
    If a smoke alarm has
    a removable battery, you must put a new battery
    in annually
    or within the time set out in the smoke
    alarm manufacturer’s instructions. The whole
    smoke alarm must be replaced within 10 years from
    the date of manufacture or earlier if specified by
    the smoke alarm manufacturer."

    So my interpretation is that even though the tenant chooses to change the battery ( to save intrusion on the tenants live) the landlord must still check the smoke alarm annually.

    And of course we are again pushed towards the third party service provider.

    How much of this legislation was promoted by these third party providers? among other self interested parties.

    Further the set fee for braking lease is now broken into 4 parts :-

    "• 4 weeks rent if less than 25% of the lease had
    expired
    • 3 weeks rent if 25% or more but less than 50% of
    the lease had expired
    • 2 weeks rent if 50% or more but less than 75% of
    the lease had expired
    • 1 week’s rent if 75% or more of the lease had
    expired.
    The break fee does not apply if the tenant ends the
    agreement early for a reason allowed under the Act."

    https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/...010/608383/Landlord-information-statement.pdf
     
  2. Just_A_Name

    Just_A_Name Well-Known Member

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    My agent just charge me $90 per year to get this smoke alarms cover. It is ridiculous amount for an $20 device
     
  3. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Are you taking the risk of the place not burning down this year and buying a few scratchies for self-insurance?
     
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  4. adprom

    adprom Well-Known Member

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    A couple of suggestions here (and I do and recommend this) is replace replaceable battery operated alarms with 240V li-ion backup batteries that last 10 years. Initial outlay is more expensive but cheaper long term for sure.

    In addition to this, what stops the landlord directly, or the PM doing the yearly yest of the smoke alarm at no added cost? Ideally during an inspection?

    When I was a tenant many years ago, the PM actually organised someone else to do the smoke alarm battery replacement and test anyway (although I don't see why a competent tenant can't do it - I think vic requires landlord to do it though).

    Re bond -
     
  5. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    There are many threads on this topic which a search will find - with plenty of opinions and answers already.
     
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  6. Just_A_Name

    Just_A_Name Well-Known Member

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    It feels like a excuse that the agent try to outsource the risk and make some money along the way.

    Also, If I have to worry about smoke alarm and have to change the battery myself, what I should pay for PM fee weekly? I solicit the PM service for the exact same reason.
     
    Last edited: 5th Apr, 2020
  7. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    The PM is generally of the belief that this is beneath them, when it is really over their heads. :rolleyes:

    They don't bring a ladder, so can't press the button or check expiry dates (too hard to cross check with their records in the office). :confused: A broom handle can reach but you wouldn't want to impose on a tenant.

    Lastly, they don't believe that their insurances (WC, PL or professional indemnity) cover the risks of getting it wrong.
     
  8. Tony3008

    Tony3008 Well-Known Member

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    I get stung for this as a LL. As a tenant, I was on the receiving end last year: inspector checked the date - more than ten years - then had to fix for an electrician to come in and replace the detector (mains hard wired) - probably cost them all the $99 (minus agent's clip). Of course they'll do OK for the next nine years ....
     
  9. G..

    G.. Well-Known Member

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    For someone to drive out to your property just to inspect the alarms and replace them if required, that's not actually a bad price. They're not making a huge amount of money off it.
    For a REA that pushes the button during an inspection, it would be much cheaper.

    You just need to give them the finger! Hand on a stick to test fire alarms

    The 10-yearly replacement of a hard-wired alarm with long life battery would cost a couple of hundred. The other nine annual inspections really could be done during rental inspections (providing records were kept of when the next 10 year replacement was due). It's a pity that property managers don't include this simple service to save their customers from having to pay another person to visit the property for one simple task.
     
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  10. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Just like, on a new lease, the managing agent has to list an owners contact detail ... email or phone ... not happy! This is why I have an agent, so I don't have to deal with tenants.

    Agents hate it too
     
  11. adprom

    adprom Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that is unreasonable. Balances out the relationship and ensures a decent amount of accountability. I don't think it is reasonable that a landlord simply uses a PM as a buffer between tenants who are the paying client. Too often (and yes I have seen this multiple times in our strata), this is no more than simply a way for the landlord to remain faceless. As an OC manager, when something needs doing these are the exact same LLs that go missing in action. Now we our issues with misbehaving tenants - but I actually find the "faceless uncontactable LL" causes even more issues.

    I have had PMs try and pull the same stunt on me and tell me not to contact the Owner directly - that generally does not go well for them. Or the owner. They really do reveal their mentality when this happens and they are politely reminded of their obligations and that treating committee members or myself the way they treat their tenants would be ill advised.
     
  12. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Well, those of us with pesky and petty tenants would rather NOT be directly connectable
     
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  13. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    I'm another vote for the inclusion of an email address - if a tenant contacts you more than once, you can send the contact to the spam folder.

    On the other hand, if the tenant's getting the Run around by the agent, they have a direct line to the owner (who may be a reasonable person and an over-zealous agent).
     
  14. Phoenix Pete

    Phoenix Pete Well-Known Member

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    Yep, we don't carry around a ladder, and most owners haven't go the slightest clue as to expiry dates, so they wouldn't be in a position to advise us, and we don't carry around aerosol cans with fake smoke to properly check smoke alarms and we don't have a supply of batteries.... and if there is a fault with the smoke alarm and a pm or owner sends out an electrician.. the cost of repair/replacement will be A HELL OF A LOT MORE THAN the $99 annual fee smoke alarm companies charge for UNLIMITED visits to the property in a 12 month period.

    Like I've said before... pressing the 'test' button alone DOES NOT PROVE THAT THE SMOKE ALARM WILL WORK IN THE EVENT OF A FIRE..
     
  15. datto

    datto Well-Known Member

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    My PM slugged me only $75 for the smoke alarm check thingy. It just came out of the blue. I don't recall being warned about it.

    I think the same thing happened last year. Feels like any money I earn gets nibbled by these pesky little expenses. Ever dangled your feet in the water and your toes get nibbled by little fish? Just thought I'd throw that in.
     
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  16. Ted Varrick

    Ted Varrick Well-Known Member

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    As a Committee Member, you would be aware that the relationship between a tenant and a LL/Owner is different to that of the OC and the owner, PMs are there to manage the relationship between the former, but not the latter.

    And that relationship between the LL/Owner and the PM is not really relevant to the OC, as the OC has processes in place already to manage any bylaw breaches by the tenant or Owner.

    And this is what the OC employs a Strata Manager for, unless you are self-managing your block, in which case I can sort of see your point from an admin perspective, but disagree with your view on buffering as unreasonable, as I feel it's entirely reasonable that tenants should only be communicating with their Managing Agents, irrespective of balanced relationships and accountability.
     
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  17. Tom Rivera

    Tom Rivera Property Manager Business Member

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    It's worth mentioning that I am not aware of any Smoke Alarm organisations that offer any kickbacks to agents for using their Smoke Alarm services. It's not a conspiracy.

    We don't check and compliance smoke alarms ourselves because our Insurers and Peak Bodies advise STRONGLY against exposing ourselves to the liability. My Insurer blatantly advised I was not insured for the practice and would therefore be placing myself in harms way without even mitigating the Landlords risk (which is the whole point).

    I think the compliance plans are great value for money and quite frankly I don't know how these companies make money using qualified electricians to zip around all day pressing buttons, BUT I would still love to save my clients the money if I could.
     
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  18. G..

    G.. Well-Known Member

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    Sure, and those owners may need to pay someone to replace the alarm, at least for the first inspection, then you will have a record of the expiry dates!

    Which is probably a good thing, since I have never seen a smoke alarm in a standalone dwelling have that method of testing recommended in the manual, they all specifically say to use the test button (at least, all I have ever seen).

    And you can't resolve that minor issue? God forbid you lose your pen, or you won't be able to sign lease agreements any more!

    Oh no! Not a $300 fee every 10 years. Better pay the annual $100 fee to save money!

    This just reminded me of a Weird Al song where he pays someone out for trying to upsell him unlimited drink refils when he's ordering drive-through. Sure, if you have enough properties then you may get one extra callout every year or two, but for most owners it's statistically insignificant. That's why they can offer it, it just doesn't happen very often.

    Sure, but the test button is the recommended way and whilst some testing contractors do use smoke the majority I have come across do not and so are no different from an owner or PM pressing the button.

    Definitely not a conspiracy at those prices. There's a heap of competition in the market, and for having to stuff around arranging times with tenants and then drive out to each property it's not going to be a geat earner for the time/petrol spent. The only real way to save some money is to avoid the duplication of having that extra person go out.

    Different insurers have different coverages - noone's forcing you to stay, and even if you got a completely separate policy for smoke alarm testing you could still charge owners half what the dedicated ones charge and save them heaps of money whilst adding very little extra workload. Your insurer doesn't appear to understand it anyway, judging by the rubbish they have come out with... When they say "mitigating the Landlords risk" are they talking about the legal compliance side (annualy pressing the button complies with the law - hence the legal risk mitigated) or are they talking about the safety side (testing as per the manufacturers reccommendation - pressing the button - seems to me to mitigate that risk). I call rubbish on that statement. (caveat - as long as you have a record of the expiry date and pay for replacement once a decade).
     
  19. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Why would you take out a separate policy or with a different insurer when it may jeopardise the required existing professional indemnity insurance?

    What about the costs for training of staff/CPD? Rewriting procedures manuals, updating job descriptions, additional pay rate (workers are upskilled but wouldn't be compensated under their existing award/payrate).

    Insurers have a better grip on these things than a layperson, maybe that delay between the PM coming to site, identifying a faulty smokey, arranging a quote/s, getting landlord's approval and having a qualified electrician attending the premises to replace the unit is an unacceptable delay and risk to the insurer in the event that something untoward happened.

    When dealing with landlords with this attitude it is often better to hand back the management to the owner or some bumpkin who is prepared to wear the risk outside of their insurance.
     
    Last edited: 12th Apr, 2020
  20. Tom Rivera

    Tom Rivera Property Manager Business Member

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    G..,

    No one is forcing me to stay, but why would I go? I have excellent coverage from an insurer who specializes in Real Estate, so I'm quite happy to take the same position 99.99% of agents take based on good advice that we shouldn't be testing our own smoke alarms.

    The whole point in paying for a smoke alarm compliance service is to mitigate a risk to the Landlord. If I'm not insured to provide that type of service and something goes wrong (god forbid the house burns down with a tenant inside), then you can bet your ass that they'll be looking for someone to take responsibility. You could argue night and day about the variety of different risks involved in property management (e.g. deck collapse), but ultimately a good Property Manager will take expert advice from highly qualified sources (e.g. REIQ backed by Carter Newell Lawyers) on risk management, and without fail- that advice is to outsource smoke alarm compliance.

    On some other points:

    Annually "pressing the button" does not automatically comply with the law- Different alarms have different methods of testing (especially these new interconnected buggers) and some of them aren't straightforward. Then you also need to clear dust from the sensor ports, test and/or replace batteries where needed, etc etc. Obviously Property Managers could still easily learn the different procedures if there weren't other good reasons for us to outsource the task, but it's not as simple as you're making out.

    I also note that in QLD, smoke alarms need to be tested and complianced within 30 days prior to lease renewal OR annually, whichever is sooner, so it's not just "once a year" up here (though I believe it is down south?). I've had some cases where they've been tested 3-4 times in a year. I think it's a stupid extra requirement, annually would be much easier to track, but it does definitely add value to the compliance services up here.

    And finally, you'd be amazed at the fail rate on smoke alarms these days... especially the cheap ones. You'd be hard pressed to get ten years out of an alarm. It's disappointing that there aren't stricter requirements for reliability in place for such critical devices, but welcome to the cheap rubbish made in 2020.

    ___________________________________

    I don't necessarily disagree with you on a basic level. The task seems simple enough to learn, and it would be a great way for us to add value to our clients. Hell, if there was some training package out there to "qualify" us for the task so that we were covered, wouldn't that be cool? Unfortunately for a mess of different reasons, that's just not our reality, so it's yet another necessary cost of owning an investment property....
     
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