Join Australia's most dynamic and respected property investment community

Mindset is like breathing...

Discussion in 'Investor Psychology' started by keithj, 1st Feb, 2016.

Tags:
  1. keithj

    keithj Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    14th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    177
    Location:
    Blue Mtns
    Mindset is like breathing. It's really, really important to those who are struggling with it, but for the rest of us there are far more important things to concentrate on.

    A small (but vocal) minority believe the right mindset is what matters most. Nope - the right mindset is but one small step of many. The only people who think mindset is most important are either those who are selling it, or those who have been sold it. You need to be strong enough to develop your own mindset, not be sold someone else's.

    The alternative to 'the right mindset' is persistence, can-do attitude, planning, research, building a team, making it happen, taking action, and hard work - these are far more important steps.
    And before anyone labels these attributes as 'mindset', stop and have a think why the gurus call it mindset. It's really hard to sell tickets to a 'Persistence Convention' (sounds to much like hard work), or a 'Get Off your Arse and Make it Happen Bootcamp' (that requires personal effort too), or a Planning and Research Seminar (sounds really boring). By calling it something that's intangible, that they have, and that they can convince you that you need, and they can't quite define, implies that you're missing something... that all your problems will be solved if you just bought the Right Mindset from them.

    So if you really do think you have the wrong mindset, then don't worry about it to much, the alternative route to success is to just Get Off Your Arse & Make It Happen, because that's the step that comes right after getting the Right Mindset anyway. So it's just as easy to completely skip the mindset phase & save yourself a lot of time & $$$ & head straight on to the Make It Happen phase.


    Mindset is faith based - it only works if you believe in it. Where's the double-blind, placebo controlled, randomised testing to demonstrate that it works at scale ? If it really did work, then we'd all be thinking abundant thoughts, and there would be no-one to actually to the work. There are lots of people out there that verify the null hypothesis - they all managed to achieve success without needing to acquire the right mindset first.

    I also lump the following into the faith based pseudo-science designed to sell stuff to susceptible minds -
    • mindfulness (what is it ? - wiki made no sense to me),
    • that vibrations thing that those gurus go on about - my thoughts on them are here
    • anyone who believes that thoughts (& not actions) have an effect on anything outside the thinkers head (like curing some else's cancer),
    • mediation - life is to short to be doing nothing & thinking about nothing too !
    • any religion that is based on imaginary friends - I have mate who reckons he prayed enough to cure his daughter of some bad illness
    • astrology - unscrupulous people taking advantage of susceptible people with no knowledge of stats or probabilities
    • choosing to have a mindset of abundance - I can tell you that you've got to do a lot more than just 'choose' it !
    • believing that the universe will provide or 'its meant to happen' - that's the lazy option - other people are going to make stuff happen that benefits them, unless you do something to make stuff happen that benefits you.
    • poverty being a mindset - try asking 1B Chinese peasants, or 1B starving Africans to just fix their mindset & it'll all be just tickety-boo.
    It's thoughts followed by a lot of action that make the difference, not thoughts alone.
     
    Bender12, Vultures, paulF and 20 others like this.
  2. Greyghost

    Greyghost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    23rd Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    1,259
    Location:
    Melbourne
    I don't agree at all...
    In fact I feel you couldn't be more wrong..

    Sustained actions and behaviours, habits, come from our beliefs. Our "why". Why do we do we do something?
    An addition to cortisol or ceratonin.. Maybe, but any action that is not founded with an emotional backing will not be sustainable.
    These are derived from our personal value set/system. The big "why" behind the "why" behind the "why"....

    How are these formed throughout our lives? Conditioning and mindset...
    These are the building blocks for sustained behaviour. Otherwise we are just animals. As humans we have the ability to consciously change. But for sustained change there needs to be a motivation or a mindset to do so.

    How can you "get off your arse", "get up and do something" if you don't have a guiding value behind it.

    So I believe you can shift mindsets or discover new ones. Create new personal values which motivate you to strive through difficult periods and remind you of why you persist with that behaviour.

    But in order to build extraordinary things, weather it be weight loss or wealth, there needs to be a foundation of belief behind why.. Or else it is all meaningless and nothing will he achieved.
     
    truong, freyja, Rixter and 3 others like this.
  3. D.T.

    D.T. Adelaide Property Manager Business Member

    Joined:
    13th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,576
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    Great post Keith!

    I think a lot would benefit from forgetting about this mindset voodoo and actually do some stuff. Doing so has nothing to do with a positive or negative person, I'm still thoroughly the former but I'd rather spend my time and energy on actually progressing.
     
    Joynz, S.T, ellejay and 2 others like this.
  4. Paterson00

    Paterson00 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    193
    Location:
    Perth WA
    Wouldn't the right mindset get you past the bit where " it's all too hard / it doesn't work" thoughts enter your head?

    Attitude coupled with action gets results so although i don't think mindset alone will get you there I'd say it's certainly an aspect.
     
    truong, dan_89, Rixter and 3 others like this.
  5. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    24th Nov, 2015
    Posts:
    624
    Location:
    Sydney
    I can see where you're coming from Keith. You're saying that you can talk about it as much as you want, but that ultimately you just have to do it. But I do believe you are confused about:

    1. "Mindfulness", which has nothing to do with buying property or making money. Mindfulness, for stress and pain reduction is proven to work. It can be mapped. Mindfulness translates to 'clear mind'--useful when making important and stressful decisions

    2. "Vibrations". From my understanding this is about intention.

    3. Meditation is about mindfulness. It can be extremely useful. It changes the brain: less firing in the amydala and more action in the front lobe, which of executive decision making. While it's not directly related to investing, it can certainly help you stay calm in times of tough decisions making.

    Really, if it works for you, use it. If people find any of the things you've listed helpful in their investing, who is anyone else to judge? Plenty of successful people use many of the tools you've listed.
     
    Last edited: 1st Feb, 2016
    truong, dan_89, freyja and 3 others like this.
  6. See Change

    See Change Timing Lord Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    2,141
    Location:
    Sydney
    80 % with Keith on this .

    I think most people don't get convinced something works until they do it and see the evidence themselves .

    For me it was research , research and then doing it . The " conviction , confidence " came after I saw that my research turned out to be correct .

    The 20 % I disagree with is the mediation , mindfulness aspect . Coming from a scientific background I have first hand evidence as to the effectiveness of meditation .

    Going through uni , the latest " trend " was " transcendental meditation " ( TM ) , which was championed by the beetles , though John became dissolusioned writing the song " fool on the hill" about the founder . It is a form of mantra meditation .

    During our neurophysiology classes we where shown an EEG of a student who was doing TM . Normally an EEG has various different size " waves " with a background of fine short term waves . The EEG of the student doing TM showed a near perfect sine wave with no background " noise " .

    My personal experience doing TM ( still do it no days ) is tha I can on occasions reach a state of calmness and tranquility unlike anything else I've experienced.

    Having experienced this state I can understand how various religious groups who do similar techniques , eg monks chanting would perceive that state as the presence of "God " . Personally I look at it as my brain getting its act together and giving me a nice sine wave boost .

    Mindfulness , in a sense is not disimilar to TM as they both have their origins in Buddhist meditation techniques being presented in a non religious setting to make them more acceptable to the " west "

    TM was the creation on one man in the 60' s .

    There are many medico's who are active Buddhists , but recognise that trying to convert their many Christian patients to a new religion is unlikely to work , so over the last 10-20 years have adopted and promote the practice of mindfulness as a way to bring the benefits of meditation to their patients .

    I still do TM but regularly suggest mindfulness , other forms of meditation or relaxation therapy to patients to help them better cope with stress , anxiety and depression .

    My personal observation over the last 30 years is that they do work .

    Cliff
     
    Last edited: 1st Feb, 2016
    truong, freyja, Rixter and 5 others like this.
  7. DaveM

    DaveM Adelaide Buyers Agent & KFC Strategist Business Member

    Joined:
    14th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    2,097
    Location:
    Sydney & Adelaide
    Those that can, do.
    Those that can't, bleat on about mindset.
     
  8. BKRinvesting

    BKRinvesting Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    15th Oct, 2015
    Posts:
    284
    Location:
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    As above,
    Agree that attitude without action is useless. However you often don't see successful action without the right attitude to start with.

    Strongly disagree re. mindfulness and meditation. Both (often linked) are proven to be effective stress management techniques, and I'm fairly sure studies have been done that identify actual changes in brain activity as @See Change mentioned above.
     
  9. Leo2413

    Leo2413 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,730
    Location:
    Sydney
    I would love to see some of you guys completely forget the 'mindset' you currently have and adopt the mindset of the average Joe Blow walking on the street (and you’re not allowed to improve Joe's beliefs either). Would love to see how you will then build wealth in the millions from that position.

    Give me a break.
     
    Last edited: 1st Feb, 2016
  10. EN710

    EN710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    2,100
    Location:
    NSW
    I thought persistence, can-do, etc is part of mindset??

    Agree with this. Most people doesn't realise they still can do the right steps even without believing it will work.

    Completely disagree. Sometime thinking about nothing helps you to do more. Life is too short to just let it pass by. At one point you will need to stop and take a breather.
     
    WattleIdo and Perthguy like this.
  11. keithj

    keithj Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    14th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    177
    Location:
    Blue Mtns
    I think you are agreeing with me.

    In short I'm suggesting that -
    • mindset is critical (like breathing)
    • develop your own - don't get sold someone else's
    • there's a lot of crap that people call mindset that actually isn't
    • mindset is only the 1st tiny step of many

    Absolutely - mindset is critical, but only the 1st step.

    Agree, entirely, Do what works for you.... none of that worked for me. Maybe we need a thread about it......

    .... and also charge a fortune for it :p

    Absolutely, but lots of us start with the 'right' mindset' - we just do it (like breathing).

    Dweck et al have done excellent work. A growth mindset is essential, but it's still only one small part of the big picture.
     
    Leo2413 and Eric Wu like this.
  12. Leo2413

    Leo2413 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,730
    Location:
    Sydney
    @keithj TBH I actually largely agree with you re taking action and doing it. But the problem is if you take the average person on the street and ask them why they haven't built any wealth (assuming they want to), you will quickly realise (as I’m sure you already know) its largely because of their current philosophy, beliefs, attitudes, habits, knowledge etc that they hold, which is not allowing them to build wealth (if we're just talking about wealth here).


    I have spoken to quite a few people who were in great positions to build wealth, really wanted to build wealth, but only had some personal debt. Great jobs, low debt and really wanting to do it but had so many wrong beliefs, attitudes, habits ect that made it impossible for them. Some of them, after we had ongoing discussions (friend to friend) about those topics, it really opened their eyes and a few actually started to address and work on those issues (especially fear) and then actually went on to build portfolios once they could get past/though the mental hurdles and also adopt new attitudes, habits, knowledge and beliefs.


    Some call that 'mindset', others don’t know what to call it because it comes naturally to them ect. But essentially it’s the underlying base that underpins most things imo.
     
    Last edited: 1st Feb, 2016
    truong, Rixter, ellejay and 2 others like this.
  13. Eric Wu

    Eric Wu Mortgage Broker Business Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    340
    Location:
    Australia
    maybe, we need to define the term " mindset" to begin with
     
    BigKahuna and Leo2413 like this.
  14. Leo2413

    Leo2413 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,730
    Location:
    Sydney
    Great point mate.
     
  15. S.T

    S.T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    428
    Location:
    I'm not selling anything
    I think I prefer to call that taking action.
     
    keithj and D.T. like this.
  16. Leo2413

    Leo2413 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,730
    Location:
    Sydney
    I agree taking action is so important. But you are saying "taking action" from the position, knowledge and beliefs YOU have right now, not from the position of the average Joe Blow on the street. There is a huge difference.
     
    bob shovel likes this.
  17. bob shovel

    bob shovel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    5,373
    Location:
    Somewhere in the land of Oz
    Great. ... What am I meant to do with my crystal collection?? :(
     
  18. BKRinvesting

    BKRinvesting Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    15th Oct, 2015
    Posts:
    284
    Location:
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Quoted it wrong ;)
     
    Leo2413 likes this.
  19. EN710

    EN710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    2,100
    Location:
    NSW
    Lol I don't know what movie that is.
     
  20. See Change

    See Change Timing Lord Premium Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    2,141
    Location:
    Sydney
    my current mind set wasn't something I learnt from others , it was built up over time as a result of research , reading books , listening to the opinions of others , here and elsewhere .

    I don't think it's something I would have got without doing things and it wasn't there before I started investing . It evolved over time .

    Cliff
     
    Last edited: 1st Feb, 2016