millionaires who pay next to no income tax

Discussion in 'Accounting & Tax' started by Terry_w, 22nd Mar, 2016.

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  1. Sackie

    Sackie Well-Known Member

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    What he said.
     
  2. Skilled_Migrant

    Skilled_Migrant Well-Known Member

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    My opinion about comment's righteousness is contextually irrelevant.
    Discussion is about establishing Mr. Packer's authority to guide tax affairs in contemporary Australia.

    Nevertheless since my opinion has been sought, let's consider the comment in some detail:
    • Transpose Mr. Packer's tax philosophy to PAYG population and consider the consequences of applying Double irish with a dutch sandwich to individual taxes.
    • Implement the second comment from Mr. Packer about inefficient tax usage by government and privatize the government and have it run by business. Degeneration of a society to an economy appears to be a possibility.
     
  3. Blacky

    Blacky Well-Known Member

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    You can extrapolate his comments to any potential future system or change you wish.
    However, the comment is then irrelevant.

    Mr Packers comments relate directly to the system which was in place at the time (and largely still is).
    His point is that he works within the system - legally. If the system is broken, its not his responsibility. He goes on to encourage everyone to legally minimise their tax.
    If the system is such that it allows for the Irish/dutch thing - well then, it is the system that is screwed - not the people operating inside of the system.

    Blacky
     
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  4. Westminster

    Westminster Tigress at Tiger Developments Business Member

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    At some stage in your moral compass you would say to yourself would it be better for the country to give them the $1.7m I spend in taxation minimisation than to give it to my accountancy firm. Some would say yes, some no but it's not really an option. If you don't spend that 1.7m then your tax bill could be 5, 10, 15m.

    Do I think it's morally wrong to pay so little tax? Yes but where do you draw the line to decide how much you should give back to the country when you can go and directly give to your favourite charities/hospitals etc and see your money go directly to helping and get a tax deduction for it.
     
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  5. Sackie

    Sackie Well-Known Member

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    It's often the people who are unable to 'break into the game', that then start to resent the players.
     
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  6. Francesco

    Francesco Well-Known Member

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    Governments are the biggest players in societies. They have the biggest budgets to address any issue in society. It is reasonable to expect that they also have the human resources or consultancy reports to know of the issues involved. It is also reasonable that they would have considered at length what to do, or abide their time, or let the situation continues. So, if the 'problem' persists it is with the tacit agreement of the government and there is political acceptance, a reflection of society at large.

    There may be a case for individual moral outrage, but it can be a matter of respectable differences in perspectives and outlook on life.
     
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  7. JohnPropChat

    JohnPropChat Well-Known Member

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    I am all for tax minimization but going out of my way to setup complex offshore company structures to purely "reduce" tax is a grey area.

    How is this different to paying down non-deductible debt to use negative gearing benefits (at taxpayers expense) to improve bottom line? I don't know but the more money that is at stake the more complex the "structuring" gets.

    I think ATO is doing a pretty good/mean job at tackling these schemes so I say we have nothing to worry about and don't forget to put you accountant in the Christmas gift list :)
     
  8. Terry_w

    Terry_w Lawyer, Tax Adviser and Mortgage broker in Sydney Business Member

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    Privately owned companies earning more than $200 million in revenue were captured under the tax transparency measure, which picked up 321 firms. The Australian Taxation Office (ATO) said 98 of those firms did not pay tax in 2013–14.

    98 private companies earning over $200m pay no tax: ATO
     
  9. Skilled_Migrant

    Skilled_Migrant Well-Known Member

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    Interesting metaphor - 'Mindset' seminars perhaps. Let's frame the debate in your terms:
    • There is not just one game in town.
    • Not everyone is interested in (any/the) game or the players.
    • What do you call the player who plays the man but not the game ?
    • Player's narcissistic view of themselves and the sport, encouraged by sycophants is often navel gazing. The game is just an evening (at most) of entertainment.
    • Discussion is not about the all the players but the Maria Sharapovas, Essendon Football Club, Lance Armstrong etc.
    • Criticism does not equal resentment. Criticism can come from various participants or sources:
      • Nadal's criticism of Sharapova : Envy, or an effort to keep the sport clean.
      • ASADA, WADA.
      • AFL
      • Referee's
      • Spectator's
    • Dr. Dank was a respected supplement specialist who advised players. It was legal till caught. The outcome for the players, Dr. Dank, and Essendon club and game is well known. What do you say to the clean players - rocks in the head? Supplements get upgraded to banned substances all the time. In continuum of your example just replace the following
      • Dr Dank = Tax advisers (The revered Mr Packer without the scientist tag in this post)
      • Players = Tax payers
      • Essendon Football Club = Australia
      • Supplements = Tax minimization techniques.
      • Banned substances = Tax avoidance techniques
      • In deference to this forum the comparisons to, the pharmacist compounding the peptides, the pimp who imported it, the coach who dispensed it are avoided.
    Good luck to all the self professed players. May your Stephen Dank know his Gatorade from his peptides and I hope that Gatorade does not get included in the banned substance list.

    • No one (including Mr. Packer) is/was forced to exploit the system to the hilt and then some. It is a conscious choice that everyone makes. The 56 millionaires made a conscious decision to pay cost of managing financial affairs rather than tax. Greece is a perfect example of abdicating personal and collective responsibility beyond legal. Greece was a 'screwed' system and people minimized their taxes within that system and we all know what happened.
    • Who is the system and how do you expect it to be mended (since at least you recognize that it is broken), when priests to personal greed are elevated to demigod-hood. If this forum is a representative of the national demographics and beliefs, is any change really possible ? Wilful blindness cannot be cured.
     
  10. Blacky

    Blacky Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Skilled_Migrant, post: 183066, member: 686"


    • No one (including Mr. Packer) is/was forced to exploit the system to the hilt and then some. It is a conscious choice that everyone makes. The 56 millionaires made a conscious decision to pay cost of managing financial affairs rather than tax. Greece is a perfect example of abdicating personal and collective responsibility beyond legal. Greece was a 'screwed' system and people minimized their taxes within that system and we all know what happened.
    • Who is the system and how do you expect it to be mended (since at least you recognize that it is broken), when priests to personal greed are elevated to demigod-hood. If this forum is a representative of the national demographics and beliefs, is any change really possible ? Wilful blindness cannot be cured.
    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed - no one is forced to work within the system, however, if you don't - who is the fool?

    'Who' is the system? The Government is the system. They are the ones who designed it, administer it and are responsible for it.
    There are enough reports telling everyone that the system is flawed. However, no government has the balls to stand up and change it - as they fear not being re-elected.

    I think both of us agree that (one) of Greeces problems was the institutionalised failure to collect taxes. Either legally or illegally. Yet - here we are with a system which allows us to legally reduce taxes to an extent that means we don't have to pay any.

    Like I said - if it is legal, that is not the individuals responsibility. The system is screwed and needs fixing.

    Blacky
     
  11. Rolf Latham

    Rolf Latham Inciteful (sic) Staff Member Business Plus Member

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    Australia cant afford a truly simplified tax system.............

    ta
    rolf
     
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  12. Skilled_Migrant

    Skilled_Migrant Well-Known Member

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    Ask the greeks, how smart are they feeling now after exploiting the system. Not as much I guess, as they were when cutting the tree they were sitting on. Working in the system and exploiting it are different.

    When did the citizen decouple from governance. Primary school: Government - for and by the citizens. So what you are saying is that the citizen has no relation or responsibility to the system or in defining what is legal. I rest my case.
     
  13. Terry_w

    Terry_w Lawyer, Tax Adviser and Mortgage broker in Sydney Business Member

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    Skilled migrant do you claim tax deductions for relevant expenses?
     
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  14. Skilled_Migrant

    Skilled_Migrant Well-Known Member

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    No. Leave the PAYG as it is. Actually did not even bother going to an accountant for filing income tax returns on a couple of occasions, did it myself.
     
  15. Sonamic

    Sonamic Well-Known Member

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    Good on ya mate. At least somebody is paying full clip.
     
  16. Terry_w

    Terry_w Lawyer, Tax Adviser and Mortgage broker in Sydney Business Member

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    What if you had an investment property? Would you claim anything?
     
  17. Bran

    Bran Well-Known Member

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    There are a stack on this forum. All trying to minimise deductions to maximise their borrowing capacity ;) I am not one of these.

    @Terry_w I must admit I'm disappointed. I thought this was one of your 'how to' threads. ;)
     
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  18. Blacky

    Blacky Well-Known Member

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    Well - Im glad someone believes it.
    I think it is BS personally. The Government is meant to be there to serve the people, however, at some point in time reality kicks in and those in charge fight to keep their jobs. They then take the easy course of action and do what is 'popular' not 'what is needed'. What is needed is rapid and drastic change - however, I don't see it happening in my life time simply because it is too hard.

    If the PAYG system works so well - why do less than 50% of the working age population pay any net tax?

    Blacky

    btw - you don't need to go to an accountant to claim deductions ;)
     
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  19. Sackie

    Sackie Well-Known Member

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    :eek:...Holy moly. ......if I had all that stuff floating around in my head..... ..there would be no room left for wealth building knowledge.

    No Thanks.
     
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  20. Skilled_Migrant

    Skilled_Migrant Well-Known Member

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    Bravo Zulu. A handful of rorters at the top end is an indictment of the government and the rorters bear no responsibility.

    • At what % of working age population's net tax payment (>0) does the system work well.
    • Maybe there is an restructuring of financial affairs (e.g. NG) in line with what the top end is doing.
    My hypothetical claims are irrelevant to the conduct of 56 Millionaires in the OP. I will definitely not do what they have done.