Load bearing wall?

Discussion in 'Renovation & Home Improvement' started by paulF, 25th Jul, 2016.

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  1. willair

    willair Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    That's good it's tiles ,combine that with hardwood and bricks very solid house the way that roof is counter braced in several area's..
     
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  2. vbplease

    vbplease Well-Known Member

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    Bang for your buck the 3m opening for $1600 sounds like it was a much better option.. And not expensive. Do you expect tradies to charge you the cost of the material, and strictly the hours they're on site? There's a bit of running around to do.. It's called a margin and it lets them put food on the table :rolleyes:
     
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  3. mcarthur

    mcarthur Well-Known Member

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    Having seen my 6m wall go, there's no way I'd do it myself and no way it could be done for $660 [edit: sorry, didn't realise your opening was only 1200mm]. Firstly, there's acroprops to hire as you have to brace the roof while the wall gets knocked down to make way for the LVLs (BTW, go the LVL route rather than the I-beam route unless you really have to because of roof height). Then whoever does it has to provide 7 years insurance against the change. The LVLs themselves - the engineer spec'ed 2x400 for mine - are relatively cheap at about $300. But then you need joist hangers to attach the joists to the new LVLs. Probably triple studs at each end. Oh, and if like me you were on stumps then a new stump immediately under each end of the beam. And then don't forget the certifiers fees, BA fees, engineer fees since you probably want to insure the house, and eventually sell it; good luck if you haven't got approvals.
     
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  4. paulF

    paulF Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the details! I don't believe a few grand for such a job is expensive and i'll be happy to pay more money for peace of mind. It's a roof after all and wouldn't want any surprises in the future... Also, value for money wise, i think it's definitely worth a few grand(at least in my case) as it will modernise the house and hence will add value to it.
     
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  5. Agent99

    Agent99 Well-Known Member

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    Just remember it is a very easy job so suss out the tradies who quote and listen to what they are actually saying. If they say its a hard job or it will be expensive....move on and find one that knows what they are doing :cool:
    Its very straight forward, probably couple of 2-3 hours 1 person if all is there and can be done with little damage to ceiling sheets and cornice. You will need to remove some tiles and cut a tile batten to get the beam in but no big deal.:D
     
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  6. mcarthur

    mcarthur Well-Known Member

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    I've no idea how you could do it without removing at least some of the ceiling and cornice! I can imagine the fun of trying to get 6m of LVL through a small hole in the tiling, missing struts and everything. And I'd love to see 1 person dealing with a 6m x 400mm LVL up on a roof!
    It could be better if your gable end is clear though, but that could mean an LVL shaped hole in the brickwork and working at height again getting 6m of LVL lined up through a hole!
    And how do you get the joist hangers on when the ceiling gyrock's glued and nailed?! :confused:

    While I agree it's a straight forward conceptual exercise (once the engineer's spec'd the size), properly propping took a couple of hours, cutting the existing beams took a few hours, man handling the LVL close and up took a couple of hours including studding the ends, the joist hanging and cutting struts onto the new LVL height took another 2-3 hours (there were about 4-5 struts), then carefully taking off the props and dealing with the inevitable slight dropping was another hour. And that doesn't include the prep work to remove ceiling & cornice, put BACK ceiling and cornice, and cleanup the entire mess. And those numbers were for an experienced builder and chippy helper.

    All I can say is that if you can do it by yourself, in 2-3 hours, then I expect to see you on the podium at RIO for the 400m butterfly, decathlon, wrestling, javelin and lets throw in being the only one needed for an entire synchronised swimming team :D.
     
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  7. paulF

    paulF Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again guys, lots of great info!
    Putting all the technicalities aside, it's proving to be quiet difficult to get local builders to even have a look at the job!
     
  8. Agent99

    Agent99 Well-Known Member

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    @mcarther your obviously not a chippie and the way you have described is handyman style ;) When you work mostly by yourself you need to think outside the square for everything you do.
    6m long lvl is not that heavy, maybe your getting mixed up with laminated.
    The tip being, remember that everything you damage "you, will need to repair" so If you follow that mentality you will always find ways to do things so your not wasting your time because you went at it like a bull at a gate. There should not be any drop whatsoever of ceilings and your confusing hanging beams with ceiling joists. :)
     
  9. Otie

    Otie Well-Known Member

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    Yes shop around, even if you get 10 quotes, there are so many out there who want to rip you off as much as they can! The stupid thing is, had they been reasonable, you
    If you think a $500 margin for 2 hours work is reasonable, then agree to disagree. Im in the industry and I dont think over 1k a day is the going labour rate.
     
  10. vbplease

    vbplease Well-Known Member

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    It's not 2hours work.. I could give a breakdown including separate site visits for measure up & install, order materials and equipment, pick them up, install + contingency for time for any complications. I've done it and they don't always go as smooth as you think when you're trying to thread a 3m beam through the roof framing. The 60year old+ roof framing may not be as straight and true as you think and you have to improvise on site.
     
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  11. mcarthur

    mcarthur Well-Known Member

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    No, I employ chippies and builders :D : this one with highest class builders licence for years and 20+ years experience; started as a chippie himself. Chippie offsider had years of experience too.

    I helped unload the LVLs, so I know how much they weighed. Not bad I agree, but not possible for a single person up on a roof! I can spell "WorkSafe" and "insurance" :). I happily admit that the two LVLs were way better to work with that the universal beam (a steel I beam for those reading at home, otherwise called a UB).
    Back to @paulF - in some ceilings you may not have much height, or your builder may try and get you to put the beam under the ceiling rather than up in the attic/ceiling cavity. If at all possible, put the beam up and not hanging down - the looks are much much better if you can't see the beam in the room. But... if for some reason it's not possible to put the beam up, then a UB is almost always not as high as an equivalent LVL and eats up less of your room height. But really, get them to put it up no matter what their excuse is - the engineer is your friend :).

    And no @Agent99, the hanging beams were in the same direction as the LVL, not attached to it. Those attached to the LVL via joist hangers (in my case) are called ceiling joists ;). Not only I use that terminology, but the engineer did as did his notes, the builder did, and the certifier did in his notes. So I'll keep using it :cool:.
     
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  12. Agent99

    Agent99 Well-Known Member

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    In 99% of my jobs the lvl was never in the same direction as hanging beams which had to be cut and bracketed onto lvl after sliding into place.
    It does depend which wall you are removing though ;)
    Single story home is easy and that's what I'm referring too:D
     
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  13. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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  14. Agent99

    Agent99 Well-Known Member

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    @Scott No Mates Yeah hyspan is good. Majority of time I was lengthening the room not widening therefore had to cut hanging beam. Strutting beam generally over a large room for roof support. Have put these in doubled up with steel fish plate.
     
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  15. paulF

    paulF Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys, reviving this thread as i had a few quotes from builders...
    Around 5k seems to be the builder's charge and most are saying no need to involve Engineer/drafter as they have their own tables that they can use to calculate LVL sizes and so on.

    Two things please; no need for Engineer sounds ok to you guys?!
    Also, my council says i need a permit for the works even though it's internal but builders are saying don't worry about council either! What are the implications of ignoring council please? issues when/if selling?

    My preference is to go with council and also engineer as i don't think it will cost marginally more.
     
  16. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    @paulF - If it is defined as structural work then you will need council approval (regardless of what your builder will tell you) - eg. building a wall requires council approval, demolition may be exempt. There may be a right for a purchaser to rescind the contract of sale when the Occupancy certificate doesn't match the current layout.

    Builders often use load tables to determine the sizing of beams required. These are engineered products dumbed down for people who regularly use them. You could use an engineer for peace of mind but if the beams fit within the span table there is no need.
     
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  17. Joynz

    Joynz Well-Known Member

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    Depends.

    If there are no floor plans lodged with Council, as long as you engineer it properly then you can do what you like. Especially if nosy neighbours can't see.

    I would not do a structural DIY Reno without engineering (even if you don't go through Council), or a lot of trust in the builder.

    However, there is structural and structural. For example, putting in a cavity slider, compared to opening up an external brick veneer wall for a five metre bifold door.

    In Vic, you just say 'there have been no structural renos in the last seven years' when selling. And hopefully you don't sell before seven years.

    Be aware, that Councils take aerial photos of their municipality up to four times a year, so they'll spot any extensions if push comes to shove...
     
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  18. Stoffo

    Stoffo Well-Known Member

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    PERSIST, IT IS WORTH IT:D

    Councils generally stipulate a permit, why, because in Vic at least it gives them a reason to UP your rates :mad:
    In the past I've found that if its internal you can choose/opt not to notify council.
    As stated above, engineering, sure it is ok for the builder to calculate and sure it will be fine, but when you come to sell you're best to have engineering ;)
    I designed and built my own portal frames when removing walls, but I did have an engineer check it and certify it :cool:
    3.5 walls GONE :D
    PICS
    1,Start (only taking out 1 wall)
    2,Then more walls
    3,Steel going in and painted
    4,As good as finished :p
     

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  19. Brian84

    Brian84 Well-Known Member

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    Did they use a steel beam or a structural timber lvl beam
     
  20. vbplease

    vbplease Well-Known Member

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    Nice one! The ceiling looks great now. Did you design the portals as moment resisting for the bracing that was removed?