Is Water Damaged Bathroom Floor Considered a Structural Defect?

Discussion in 'Repairs & Maintenance' started by Cherrychan, 20th Jun, 2020.

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  1. Cherrychan

    Cherrychan Active Member

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    As per the title, is a water damaged bathroom floor considered a structural defect?

    It looks as if half the bathroom floor was replaced with yellow tongue chipboard at one stage and it has dark water damage stains visible from under the subfloor where the shower is located. It doesn't feel very spongy maybe a little on the edge. Next to it are two joists with rot, but it looks like new joists were placed next to them as a repair at one stage.

    In the actual bathroom it appears in good condition with no indication of water damage present.
     
  2. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    The joists with rot sound like more of a concern, is this on a property you own or one you are looking to buy/have signed a contract for?
     
  3. Cherrychan

    Cherrychan Active Member

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    The new joists are fine. No rot. The old rotten joists are still in position too though. One joist has old wood worm rot along the bottom edge of one side and is dry. The other is a bit damp with a little rot. Right next to them but not touching are extra joists without damage. All old hardwood. I assume when they were put in they just didn't bother removing the old ones. They only span the bathroom.

    It's a property I want to sell. I bought it very cheap without a building inspection. I've renovated the rest of the house but the bathroom was in good condition (inside) so I didn't touch it. I don't really have time or cashflow at the moment to get it repaired and would be happy to give a discount to have it repaired by the purchaser instead of scuttling the sale on a structural defect clause, hence I'm asking if they are considered such. It's not under contract yet but there has been an offer I've accepted that they want subject to a building inspection and now that I've seen the water damage I'm concerned.

    I actually went under to check a footing because from outside it looked as though there was a large crack in one, but on closer inspection it was just a big, dirty cobwed! The rest of the concrete footings look great too thank goodness!
     
  4. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    Do you have the wording of the B&P clause from your contract handy?
     
  5. Cherrychan

    Cherrychan Active Member

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    Actually, I was just going over the contract (it is a basic law society contract) which the purchaser hasn't signed or received a copy yet as they just made the offer and we are still working out the exact terms and the section with the building inspection clause doesn't actually mention structural defects as such, just a defect limit.

    "Inspection Clause If this Contract is subject to a building inspection, complete all relevant details
    below.
    The Purchaser may have reasonable access to the Property during the Building Inspection Period to inspect buildings and other improvements on the property personally or by agents, at the Purchaser's cost.
    If, strictly within the Building Inspection Period, the Purchaser serves on the Vendor:
    • a copy of a report, by a building inspector holding professional indemnity cover for that work or a licenced Building Services Provider both:
    ○ specifying one or more defects in buildings and other improvements on the Property; and
    ○ certifying such defects are likely to cost more to remedy than the Defect Limit;
    • notice that the Purchaser terminates this Contract in response to that report, then the parties' obligations under this Contract end and the Purchaser is entitled to a refund of the Deposit, but neither party is otherwise entitled to compensation.

    Building Inspection Period: (Complete) until the ________ day of _________ 20_______ or (Insert number of days) ______ days from ______________

    Defect Limit: Either ______ per cent of the Sale Price or $_____."



    So I assume that the purchaser would have to get quotes for the repairs and if it exceeds the allowed percentage or agreed $ amount they could cancel the sale. They haven't mentioned any kind of defect limit yet.
     
  6. Archaon

    Archaon Well-Known Member

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    That seems to be the case yes, they could argue that the damaged floor needs to be replaced and so will all the times and bathroom if they want to get out of the sale, they will also have to agree on the defect limit.

    What has your conveyancer/property Lawyer said?
    Who proposed the clause as stated?
     
  7. Joynz

    Joynz Well-Known Member

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    Please post some photos. Especially showing the new and old joists you mention.

    The answer to the joists query may depend on the span and a few other things impossible to tell without seeing it.

    Old water stains on the yellow tongue floor is unlikely to be structural if it is in good condition - not soft or spongy. Yellow tongue is impregnated with wax so is water resistant. However, you mention something was wet? Is something leaking?

    I suggest getting a qualified carpenter (who knows about subfloors in houses) to look at it if you are worried. I’d probably just wait and see.

    Edit: I’m surprised by the ‘defect limit’ mentioned - I have purchased in Vic and not heard of that before.

    (Note: Suggest you post the query about the floor and joists on the Renovate Forum too.)
     
    Last edited: 21st Jun, 2020
  8. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

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    I've not noticed anything about defect limits on any of my contracts. If they sign the contract, subject to building & pest, then if there is something in the building report that states there is significant damage, they can get out of the contract, or get a quote to get the work done and ask you to rectify.

    We did this on one purchase, where the report showed up a plumbing issue. We got the builder to quote it, and it was around $10k. We dropped our offer by $10k & bought the property. We then got a plumber in to fix. The actual cost to us was under $1k.
     
  9. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    We've three times reduced a sale price to get a sale through. One was for $2k reduction 24 years ago ($312k sale price) for two stumps that the building report suggested needed replacing. That same building report stated that the cubby house (made from shipping pallets by hubby, not bolted to the ground) was not "up to building code". :eek:

    Our solicitor said the cubby house was a chattel so we took it away, exposing the ugly back side of the neighbour's shed with pots stacked up, hidden from our living rooms by the gorgeous "raiders of the lost ark" style cubby. So we dismantled it and later learned our buyers were pregnant, so they probably wished their solicitor (her brother) hadn't been such a smartarse. Because now they looked into the ugly back side of the shed and lost a fabulous cubby for their son. Losers.

    Second time was sale of a sturdy post war house that had a bathroom replaced some time in its 40 year history. Old water marks on the joists were evidence of a very old water leak, with the timber dry as a bone, clearly the reason why the bathroom probably was replaced years before. But those buyers asked for, and got, something like $2.5k off the contract price because we wanted to not have to keep marketing it. Also about 20 years ago on a $240k sale price.

    I'm quite sure their building inspector would have told them this was very old water marks, but either their solicitor or perhaps a concerned parent, or just someone sniffing an opportunity to a discount was pushing them. We could have said "see ya later" but chose to discount and move on.

    Third time was a very obvious drop in a concrete suspended slab for a small enclosed (but once open) patio. We had this engineered, new galvanised posts concreted in with heavy beams to support the slab where it had sagged. This was signed off, very visible to anyone looking. We provided a building report and pest report for this building, but buyers were obviously able to pay for their own if they thought we'd somehow bribed a building inspector to lie (why would anyone risk their professional standing by doing that).

    The building inspector may have raised it (can't recall), but had the documentation from the engineer (and enough common sense) to tell the buyers this had been addressed and would not be an issue. No discount asked for. This was for a $750k sale three years ago.

    It so much depends on the building inspector, the buyer, who is behind them and what they really want. They may want a discount or they may wish not risk having the vendor say "see ya later" and miss a house they really do want.

    My mother used to insist that purchasers attend at the end of the building inspection because what a building inspector writes into his report was often so scary sounding, but he'd say "this is a good house, I'd be happy to buy it". I've seen this first hand.

    May not help you, but I think you either get a building inspection yourself, or just wait and see what the agenda is when your buyers do one, and be prepared to stand firm, accept a lowering of your price or tell them "see ya later".
     
  10. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Listen to the offers, if they're conditional or tempered by $X because of old damage consider what is the better outcome for you.
     
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  11. Cherrychan

    Cherrychan Active Member

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    Thanks for the replies and advice all.

    The purchasermade a good offer which leaves us with a good buffer luckily! They seem to really love the property.

    Now they've arranged for a builder they know to inspect the property before signing the contract and once they are happy will proceed with no inspection clause.

    So this can go either way I guess.

    The builder might "find" an issue, or they may not be as thorough as they are not a proper building inspector as such.

    The inspection is at the end of the week.
    So nerve wracking!
    Wish me luck!
     
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  12. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    If it is a builder, you might be lucky enough to find he is realistic and not just covering his backside by writing up every teeny thing, even old damage long gone, which spooked our buyers, but of course they still wanted the property, but just wanted it for less. :rolleyes:

    Good luck!
     
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  13. iloveqld

    iloveqld Well-Known Member

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    Building inspector job is to find something to get discounted for, it is the norm in real estate investment game, specially with the old houses (also with new constructions).

    Just be happy and enjoy it as a negotiation game. It will be the same emotional war games for buyers as some will have less experienced, thus, more concerns while others will not.

    You will be fine after this sale, good luck.
     
  14. Hosko

    Hosko Well-Known Member

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    Probably dealt with differently in each state - But they are getting a builder to look at it without a signed contract? And they have already made an offer? Was this an informal type offer they made, it might be a good buffer until they come back and say that their mate has indicated there is $xxx amount of work to be done
     
  15. Cherrychan

    Cherrychan Active Member

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    Yeah, I've thought about that angle.
    I've actually had 2 other offers on the property from separate people and both were below asking but not below our absolute minimum and we decided to hold out.
    This offer is formal, but no signed contract and on condition they inspect before committing.
    It's actually fairly generous even if we took $5 to $10k off. Basically they want their builder friend to look over the property before they commit a deposit and to the contract. If the builder suggests it's a huge amount for repairs in that instance I'd get quotes myself and even consider getting repairs completed by another builder. Anyways, will see what happens!
     
  16. Trainee

    Trainee Well-Known Member

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    your agent should go to the other buyers and say we have an offer for x. See of theyll raise their offers and actually sign a contract.
     
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  17. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    A good agent wouldn't give the figure of the other offer, but would go to any other interested parties and say there is one offer and two other interested parties and see if they wish to put in an offer.
     
  18. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

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    Depends a bit on State @wylie . Had an interesting time with the last QLD purchase, because of the way they did things, which was different to here.
     
  19. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    I've never bought in another state, but I'd not want my agent to go to two other interested parties and tell them what my offer is. That isn't ethical. I've had one agent tell me that, and we bought the house for $5k more, but the agent shouldn't have told us the figure. We didn't ask for the information.

    Most agents I've dealt with would say "there's another offer on the table, not yet accepted so make an offer that you're comfortable with or risk it sells to the other buyer". Different if an offer has been declined but not a "live" offer.
     
  20. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree that it isn't ethical, but I've come across it on more than one occasion.