House & Home I'm too stingy with my Solar

Discussion in 'Living Room' started by Angel, 17th Dec, 2018.

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  1. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    Oh man that's sweeeeet. Currently my only advance storm warning is an SMS from Woollies (home/contents is with them)
     
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  2. SatayKing

    SatayKing Well-Known Member

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    I have to thank the contributors to this thread. I find it a very interesting subject. I'm not well versed on the matter nor is my residence solar (strata) but I have a number of discussions with those who have installed solar and/or are researchers in the field.

    No doubt others have read reports stating last year over six solar panels a minute were installed in Australia. Given that trend, it seems to me to be foolish to ignore it and not develop a workable national policy on it. Yet it appears it is preferred to be ignored to a large extent.

    I suspect due to a void at the top, business and individual households are taking matters into their own hands as well as reacting to specific state initiatives. The outcome will likely to be a text book copy of how not to do it.

    Chatting with some involved with the suburb of Denman Prospect where I understand it is required each residence have a 3kW installed there are indications of some issues such as brownouts. Whether that is due to a low standard of products, lack of transformer upgrades to deal with supply, inverters working independently rather than in series, I wouldn't know. Whatever the reason, if true, I will hazard a guess little or zero responsibility will be accepted further up the line.
     
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  3. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    The sun - doh - that's why you have solar panels on the roof feeding into the battery and recharging it for nighttime use ... which is why my electricity bill was only $64 for last quarter. Very little of that bill was for usage - the majority being because I "didn't" use

    My battery does not recharge from the grid at all - but once it's fully charged the excess does go out to the grid.

    The problem with producing during the day and sending it all to the grid - is that the grid usually doesn't need it during the day and the excess is simply "discharged". The grid needs the power at peak times (which is why they call it peak) from 7-10pm ... which is usually after the sun goes down ... so to store the daytime electricity in a battery, for use during this peak time, I am consuming significantly less fossil fuels (which is reflected in my bill)
     
    Last edited: 19th Dec, 2018
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  4. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    It seems you are only concerned about what happens within your own property boundary - in that case, yes, your property is using less fossil fuels as a result of greatly reduced usage of the grid for your electricity.

    My point is that your street as a whole is not using any less fossil fuel, compared to if you didn't have a battery. When you put solar panels on, your street's demand on fossil fuels reduced. When you put your battery in, there was no additional benefit for the environment.
     
  5. Dan Donoghue

    Dan Donoghue Well-Known Member

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    Electricity is stored once it is sent to the grid, it wouldn't be a good business model for them to just "discharge" it when they pay you for it.

    Here are a handful of ways electricity can be stored: 9 Ways to Store Energy on the Grid | DiscoverMagazine.com

    Also I believe massive capacitors (those big buzzing things you see at sub stations) are used to store energy to allow for fluctuations in the quest to reduce brown outs.
     
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  6. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Actually, sending power onto the grid is causing major headaches. Much better to store it in your own battery so you're not adding to excess-surges and over-demand.

    https://www.smh.com.au/business/the...rge-is-flooding-the-grid-20180606-p4zjs7.html

    How to store surplus renewable energy | Australasian Science Magazine
     
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  7. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Lots of expensive "can's" very little "do's" ... better just to store it at the source of production, to draw on when production ceases for a period. No ebb and flow that way.
     
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  8. Dan Donoghue

    Dan Donoghue Well-Known Member

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    I think two issues are being confused here. @chylld stated that having a battery doesn't reduce your carbon footprint but having the solar does, this is completely correct.

    That fact doesn't express our opinion of batteries or load bearing issues on the grid. I have a battery and I love it, it's a fantastic piece of technology and I'm extremely glad I was in a position to be an early adopter.

    No matter how much I love my battery and no matter how I feel about the technology, it doesn't stop the point that @chylld made from being correct.
     
  9. HiEquity

    HiEquity Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Energy storage is not the same as energy production. If I produce solar power on my roof, some other fossil generator or group of generators has to reduce its output by the same amount as it was previously serving that load. Batteries add nothing to that, other than to help solve electricity control and dispatch problems that do not exist yet. And when they do actually turn up as more people install more panels, will have much cheaper solutions than batteries.

    The incentive to play more with net metering behind your own meter is perverse and ignores the fact that someone else is now paying for the powerlines that you still rely on. Unless you disconnect completely from the grid, in which case you have my full support. Electricity network companies cannot expect to be shielded from stranded asset risk but neither will they sit idly by while people disconnect from the network. They will drop their price in the face of competition instead, as their money has already been invested / assets have been built.
     
  10. Fargo

    Fargo Well-Known Member

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    The grids needs it more in the day, peak is between 2 or 4 pm depending which state you are in and fnishes at 8 pm, 8 to 10 is a shoulder period, but it is different on weekends.
     
  11. HiEquity

    HiEquity Well-Known Member

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    Keeping in mind all the market forecasters are predicting lower daytime wholesale prices to become entrenched over the next few years, due to the solar boom showing no sign of stopping. Not that it really matters if peak load happens in the evening rather than during the day. The electrons don't care and neither should we...

    The "real" load will still be the same of course but we will never know what that is anymore with all these solar panels behind the meter. Although when people install solar, they also move their consumption to occur at the same time they are producing power, which is a very good thing and is hardly ever talked about...
     
  12. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    But that is the issue I am debating - fossil generators CANNOT simply reduce their production if there is a renewable overload. I'll post this link again, in case you missed it ... Electricity distributors warn excess solar power could destabilise grid

    I live in a coal area (and wine), my husband works in the industry and we have two of the major power fossil fuel power producers in my backyard ... they cannot simply wind up and down instant production "as required" ... What, if anything, does 'base load' power actually mean? ... If there is excess on the grid, due to a high renewable day, then it has to be expunged.

    By storing the power in the location it is collected reduces this pressure on the grid and keeps the power within the system.

    Peak usage periods are 4-8pm ... with a shoulder from 8-10pm ... Peak & Off-Peak Electricity Times | Tariffs & Rates – Canstar Blue ... considering the sun is no longer effective on solar after 4pm (the start of the peak period) then this puts massive strain on the electricity grid, especially in summer ... What time of the day and during the year does a solar system work? ... and does not reduce the demand on fossil fuels

    Yes - exporting solar power to the grid does somewhat reduce the use of fossil fuel (as long as the coal stations are able to plan for it) - but it also put enormous strain on an aging grid of poles and wires as it tries to store the overload

    Then you get a run of stinking hot days and the power generators have to ask big business to shut down their production (at enormous expense) - which is occurring on a near annual basis. All because the power generators CANNOT predict the volume of usage required by domestic consumers and ramp up/down in a dime

    2018 - Tomago Aluminium hits out at power shortage
    2017 - https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...r-as-electricity-cut-off-20170210-guabaw.html
     
    Last edited: 20th Dec, 2018
  13. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what science you're talking about - the science that renewables are the future (agree) - the science that coal powered stations, the most common form in of power production in Australia, cannot power up and down at a whim (agree) - that our aging poles and wires grid is struggling (agree) - that peak demand for electricity occurs at a time of day after solar power becomes inefficient (agree)

    Willing and happy to consider other scientific reasoning - but not fussed on opinion pieces
     
  14. HiEquity

    HiEquity Well-Known Member

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    Sorry @Lizzie but you are wrong. Electrical power cannot be ‘expunged’ as you say. On a power system, demand and supply must always be balanced. If the load is the same and a solar panel adds more power to the system, then another generator has to reduce it.

    Base load power stations have found a way to do so when faced with this reality (despite never being designed for this - requiring a base load to operate is a big disadvantage which is why no-one is building anymore of them), although it is the gas “mid merit” power stations that do most of the swinging to accommodate renewables. The poles and wires are doing fine - their owners are just using this as an excuse tor more gold plating, which the rest of us pay for.

    The reality is that money spent on batteries is money that could have been spent on more solar/wind/etc somewhere else. Contrary to popular belief, when you add generators to a power system it only gets more reliable, all other things being equal...
     
  15. Angel

    Angel Well-Known Member

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    I too am very happy to agree with science. And I have to agree with logic.

    I really cannot see how my using my own stored battery power at night (say 100 units) is causing my neighbour to have to use more fossil powered energy at night (his 100 units).

    100 + 100 = 200
    If all 200 comes from the grid, net cost of fossil fuels = 200
    If 100 comes from my roof and 100 comes from the grid, cost of fossil fuels used by two households = 100. Fossil fuels benefits by 100.

    Does this demonstrate a 50% daily improvement?
     
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  16. Angel

    Angel Well-Known Member

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    @HiEquity
    I just read your post after I wrote mine. Thank you, I am starting to see the point now. But keep going, if my understanding is incorrect, I sincerely want to learn more :)
     
  17. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Can you link me to some facts to substantiate? All I see is you've written an opinion piece.

    Whereas I have linked to articles advising of base power having to be offloaded, that base power cannot be reduced and increased on demand, that the poles and wires are not coping and that storage is vital as peak period of usage occur after solar ceasing being produced.

    The last being the most important - storage
     
  18. HiEquity

    HiEquity Well-Known Member

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    The environmental benefit comes from your solar, not your batteries. Time shifting your net load to the grid via the battery is purely a financial benefit.

    Think of them in isolation. If you just installed a battery without solar you wouldn’t expect any environmental benefit. Adding solar into the mix doesn’t make the battery anymore environmentally beneficial. The environmental benefit only comes from the solar so if that I the aim just install more solar...

    This may change when we get to very high percentages of renewables overall and curtailment of solar may be required but there is still a very long way to go before we get to that point...
     
  19. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    You are correct - because if you didn't store it during the day for later usage then you would have to draw on it from the fossil fuel grid at night.

    Usage of electricity can't be deferred, it is either there or not ... ie ... if solar power is produced during the day but is required during the night then, if not stored, it is not available.

    In an ideal world HiEquity and Chllyd would be correct - sadly we do not live in an ideal world
     
    Last edited: 20th Dec, 2018
  20. HiEquity

    HiEquity Well-Known Member

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    This is power engineering 101. The puff pieces you linked are by journalists and commentators trying to establish a brand for themselves by predicting problems that don’t exist.

    The evidence is on the AEMO website showing coal power stations dropping to 25% output overnight in WA when it’s windy. You can download all the data yourself to have a look. The companies who owned them used to swear and declare this was impossible until they were faced a financial incentive to do so. Then guess what happened? They found a way...

    Let us not forget that the fossil generators who used to serve the daytime peak are nearly all still there and are perfectly capable of being used in the evenings. I haven’t seen the lights going out regularly in the evenings have you? Surely there would be some brownouts if the system was really under so much pressure?

    This is a storm in a teacup. We have walked on the moon - we can do this. An incredibly conservative and risk averse industry just has to do things a little differently. Batteries will be required one day but we are not close to that point.

    But let’s get one thing clear. Solar panels compete with fossil generation. Batteries compete with poles and wires. I don’t see much point in competing with the poles and wires, other than keeping the *******s who own them honest of course. I am enjoying the rise of batteries for that reason...
     

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