Education & Work I'm all for Safe Schools but ...

I dont necessarily disagree with your last post but what does it have to do with the topic?

You've been pretty reasonable and taken the kinder/more humanitarian approach in the refugee thread, I just don't get your hostility towards transgender people.

 

I have repeatedly stated that trans women are entitled to a safe space. But not at the expense of women and girls.

Yes, they deserve to be treated with respect. I remind you that the people who do not treat them with respect are homophobic men, not women.

To answer your question: I am affected because I am a woman and I have daughters

 

Please show me the hostility?

 

I can only comment on the one case I actually experienced in a school.

Very careful consideration was given to the best interests of ALL students and staff when the decision regarding appropriate toilet facilities was made. The proposed decision was notified to everyone who may have been affected and input invited.

I have no intention of arguing the rights or wrongs of reassigning gender, that is up to the student, parents and doctors. I cannot imagine the courage it took for this formerly male student to return to school, to the same students and teachers, as a girl. Change of name, uniform and appearance.
Marg

 

http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org.au/uploads/341c0ca18e387c50e19f562008175dbc.pdf

@geoffw and @sanj , this organisation is not pushing for unisex facilities. Their first priority is giving the transgender person the shower/changing room/toilet they feel most comfortable using. It argues against pushing them towards gender neutral facilities.

I think then it is reasonable to consider the comfort of girls and women who are forced to share their spaces with transgender people.

 

I think BKs stance is a bit confusing and counter intuative to those on the left, and theres also a whole background of tension between feminists and the trans community, which i only vaguely understand.

The document i linked to above, says that schools should have gender neutral facilities, but it also says that Students should be able to choose the showers and changing rooms they want to use and not forced into gender neutral facilities.

(490 australian schools have signed up to this coalition)

I think at that point, its worth pausing to examine this movement more critically.

 

Reminds me of the american black activist who 'identified as black' but turned out to be totally white.

Is race a social construct?

 

According to identity politics, it could be. Rachel Dolziel is the woman you are thinking of Esel. She was an activist for Black-American issues. She claimed to be black. In fact, she was white. She claimed she 'identified' as black. Black Americans found it rightly offensive that someone with no experience of blackness should appropriate black culture, without knowing their struggles and without having the lived experience of a black woman.

 

I think there's either an absolute right to bodily privacy - in which case every student should have individual stalls for changing - or there's not. (I'm inclined to think not, but I recognise that's going to be a hard battle to win.)

I can't see any case for people being "forced" to be naked in front of people of the same gender, but "protected" from being naked in front of people of the opposite gender. It seems ****** in assumptions of heteronormativity that seem outdated and irrelevant.

 

I knew that this issue would be controversial. If it's made anyone think and look at things a bit differently, I'm glad.

Some have come pretty close to calling me a 'bigot' without using that word. This is the world we live in and this is the prevailing thinking about these issues, so I'm not surprised.

I've said it before: in our race to be inclusive and cool, we're willing to suspend all rationality and facts. All of a sudden, 'feelz trumps reals'. Geoff has accused me of being 'emotive' and a couple of other things, because I dare to mention facts, science and back-up data. Sanj has said I'm hostile, although he can't show where I've been hostile.

No matter what a female or a male does to the body, it doesn't change their sex. All the hormones, facial feminisation, lopping off body bits, doesn't change your sex. I'm sorry for those who find that fact offensive, but it's the truth.

Men who transition are still male. They can wear 'womanface' if that's what they choose to do, but they're still YX. Does that mean they don't deserve safety, respect? Of course not. But why deny reality?

Does anyone notice we're only talking about the rights of men who transition? Can anyone imagine women transitioning and demanding access to men's spaces?

My personal opinion is that we've been conditioned into thinking that women (and men) must act a certain way to be real women or real men. If our culture said it was okay for boys to be sensitive, to like pink and, heck, even to wear skirts (as Will Smith's son does) and for girls to be butch, there wouldn't be a mass industry for transition.

'Heteronormativity'-a buzzword and first coined by Theory and Identity Politics. "I am whatever I say I am". Has the world gone mad? We're living in a world where Ezzo (who I assume is a white male, who knows what privilege is) is telling young 12 year old girls to 'check their privilege?

An academic on identity politics:


This is a link to an interview with Miranda Yardley. She is a writer and an advocate. I have huge respect for her. She admits she is a male. Cosmopolitan interview

Genderapostates is another great site with both women and trans women writers:
Who's Afraid of Germaine Greer? - Gender Apostates

 

You've focused on the word but haven't rebutted the principle: why is it inherently "safe" for a child to be naked with a child of the same sex, but inherently "dangerous" for them to be naked with a child of the opposite sex?

 

I asked a question of you in post #10 which was trying to bring the reverse topic into the discussion. I also shared the experience of my female to male friend.

I honestly think a male (XY) would have no issues with another male (XX) using the 'men's spaces'. I doubt they would even know that a transgender person it using them along with them.

I also have another question for you BK which I hope you don't ignore because I'm truly interested to hear your thoughts. I may have misunderstood but I read your dislike of having transgender males in the female spaces being mainly due to the fact that they may 'perve' on the females while they're changing or maybe even take it a step further. With that logic do you also have an issue if a gay female is using a female space? Should she then be made to use the male spaces as she wouldn't be sexually attracted to males?

 

It's really sad that you are being disingenuous. Mothers don't even let their little boys go into male bathrooms on their own. You tell me why that is so? "I will never, ever let my son use male public toilets."

 

I am not being disingenuous and it's offensive that you'd accuse me of being so.

 

Hi @Kinnon Bell , a gay female is a female. She shouldn't be excluded from a women's toilet. Neither should a trans man be excluded from a female toilet. A trans man is a female.

No, it has nothing to do with attraction. Heterosexual women are attracted to men (well, some men anyway). But I've not heard of one instance of a woman infringing on a male space to take photos, to peep, to make fun of.

I think that history and statistics show that this happens. I have posted some instances. I'm assuming this is why I've been labelled 'emotive', amongst other things. It happens a lot. This brings us to the 'not all men' defence, which I've talked about before.

I just think that no one is thinking about the rights of teenage girls and women ; everyone keeps talking about the rights of trans women (who are still male)

 

Do you regard a 16 or 17 year old boy as an adult or a child?

 

Then why do you ask a rhetorical question?

 

Geoff, which facts did I not provided when asked? I didn't realise that if you demand facts, I must respond and provide immediately? Sorry if I haven't read that in the forum rules.

Do you notice the quotation marks? That means that I'm not saying it.