Huge drop in value - Mining/Gas/Ag town - what to do??

Discussion in 'Investment Strategy' started by MBO, 1st Feb, 2016.

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  1. THX

    THX Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    The alternative argument makes no sense.

    Lets say mineral rights revert to landowners.

    If this occurred, how many landowners would have the resources to mine what is underneath them? almost none.

    So what do they do? sell the rights to mining companies

    Landowner makes a profit.

    Mining company makes a profit

    Public makes nothing.
     
  2. Big Will

    Big Will Well-Known Member

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    Funnily enough there are people who are not happy.

    You play by the rules you are given and if you don't like it then you go some where you prefer.

    I am all for the GST to be increased even to 25% provided other personal taxes are reduced.

    This would stop a lot of cash jobs being done along with charging tourists more tax (less we need to supply).
     
  3. Esel

    Esel Well-Known Member

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    I wasnt arguing that the mineral rights revert to landowners. I dont see that as the alternative.

    I was comparing australias futures fund to norways soverign wealth fund. Norway have set themselves up while Australia has an uncertain future. Are you in norway @Big Will ? Whats your take on it all?

    i dont think howard or costello made the most of our incredible windfall. instead they frittered much of it away in tax breaks and middle class welfare. The mining tax was another missed opportunity.
     
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  4. THX

    THX Well-Known Member

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    So you're advocating socialism? Nationalise mining companies.
     
  5. Esel

    Esel Well-Known Member

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    I wasnt, but now you suggest it, i agree with you, we would have been better off if we had privatised fewer assets.

    Most of the big resource/energy companies are mostly foreign owned i think. Im not suggesting confiscating their assets, just that our government gave it all away too cheaply and frittered away the profits. They didnt invest wisely.
     
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  6. THX

    THX Well-Known Member

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    Then you're issue is with the government not mining companies and the two biggest miners in the world are Australian/UK
     
  7. Big Will

    Big Will Well-Known Member

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    Don't like the mining companies making huge profits why not buy shares in them, then you can be part of the profiteering!

    Oh wait BHP share price in the last 5 years has only gone one way...
     
  8. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

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    I think your idea is great Thx.
     
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  9. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

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    Some of us think more than about ourselves only.
     
  10. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

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    Citation?
     
  11. Marg4000

    Marg4000 Well-Known Member

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    Howard and Costello set up the future fund to ensure Australia's future prosperity. Around A$50 billion at the end of 2006/07 financial year.

    "Kevin 07" Rudd spent it all.
    Marg
     
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  12. Esel

    Esel Well-Known Member

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    I think an austerity package would have cost us more in the long run.
     
  13. Big Will

    Big Will Well-Known Member

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    Are you accusing me of something?

    We all play by the same rules some will take advantage of it whilst others will complain. Socialism sounds great but who pays for it all? Want free health care for all then you need to increase taxes to pay for it, don't want any health care at all then we can lower taxes. Same with roads, education etc etc.

    If you want the best free health, road, infrastructure, education and a meal on the table each night and provide everyone with enough to live off then you need to increases taxes so sky high levels.

    If you think raising taxes to provide a social sustainable environment is the answer maybe read - Does socialism work? A classroom experiment - The Commentator

    I have seen and heard from dole recipients where they would rather decline a job as they get paid basically the same then if they worked, maybe they might have $50 a week more but had to work 30 hours to get the extra $50.

    People need to stop blaming the government for their choices or asking the government for money and stand on your own two feet. Yes there are exemptions but do I enjoy paying taxes, insurance and even going to work? Not in the slightest however if I don't pay taxes I go to jail, if I don't pay insurance and something was to happen it would cost me more if I don't go to work then I will have no income (hey I solved my tax issue!).
     
  14. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

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    That's why a universal basic income is a good idea. No disincentives in it.

    I'm not accusing anyone of anything. The northern European countries do very well thank you, without the input of laissez faire, neoliberal capitalists. The population is happy to pay high taxes to fund their child care, social welfare, education and health. They have a high standard of living and the people are some of the happiest in the world. So it can and does work. They look askance at countries like the US, one of the wealthiest countries in the world where the sick, the infirmed, the vulnerable and the needy are left to fend for themselves.
     
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  15. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

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    Labor initiated the mining tax. It was a good idea. It is talked about in one of my links. Unfortunately, it was watered down and then loopholes taken advantage of, until it was finally thrown away by the Liberals.
     
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  16. Big Will

    Big Will Well-Known Member

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    If you think there is no disincentives to a UBI then you might want to look at the bigger picture.

    Lets pretend there is a couple of different amounts and everyone needs 40,000 to live off a year (15k rent 10k food, 15k misc expenses utilities) etc, where two work and one doesn't.

    1. UBI 10,000 p.a.
    Income
    Person one - 10,000
    Person two - 10,000 + 50,000 job = 60,000
    Person three - 10,000 + 200,000 = 210,000

    Person one cannot survive, person two is able to save 20k per year, person 3 able to save 170k pa.

    UBI 100,000
    Person one - 100,000
    Person two 100,000 + 50,000 = 150,000
    Person 3 - 100,000 + 200,000 = 300,000

    However expenses have gone up as there is more supply, expenses are now 125,000p.a. again only 2 and 3 can live. I have made up the expenses figure now but read further if you want to see why expenses have gone up.

    So now everyone lives a fantastic life? I don't think so.

    BTW who is paying 100,000 to each person using the ABS property clock which stands at 24M that is $2,400,000,000,000 in additional revenue the government needs to find (or are you funding the UBI?). The only way government gets money is to sell something or increase its income (taxes). So more taxes!

    With people not needing to work all the jobs people don't want to do will mean prices for those jobs will need to pay more. Sounds good more money for the lower income earners right? Not really remember user always pay.

    So with a business needs to pay someone 100,000 a year just to clean whatever means they need to increase the price of the product to cover the cost (or were you expecting businesses to just wear the cost?). If a cleaner is getting 100,000 a year as a higher skilled (not putting down a cleaner here) worker would want more money so now you need to pay that worker 200,000 a year. Now the higher skilled employee is getting paid more the manager will demand more as they are higher skilled than the worker so you pay them 400,000. Who pays this? That's right the end user pays!

    So instead of paying 30,000 + 60,000 + 120,000 = 210,000 in wages you are now paying 100,000 + 200,000 + 400,000 = 700,000. Sounds great however the cost of the item has gone from $100 to $700!

    Mind you this doesn't include the cost of material going up for the items as they also need to pay their workers more and the business needs to pay more for delivery as now the courier is getting paid 300,000 a year and the fuel worker has increased to 150,000 each per year, so now fuel is $5.00 a litre.
     
  17. BigKahuna

    BigKahuna Well-Known Member

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    UBI @ $100,000 - who has ever talked about that?

    Most of the jobs that currently exist will not exist in the future because of automation. You haven't taken that into account.
     
  18. Big Will

    Big Will Well-Known Member

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    Even at UBI of 10,000 just means more expensive products or did you did you only get up to the 100,000 UBI and went OMG no way who says it should be that high.

    Who is paying for the UBI?

    If you are that is great I will give you my bank details so you can deposit it. If you want the government to pay it how will they pay for it? Raise taxes? Don't hit my personal tax income no but then again if I am not working who cares!?!

    Lets tax the companies, that's the socialism way isn't it? Great lets increase company tax to now 90% that will stick it to the big guys? Beautiful now we are getting 90% company tax we all live the great life.

    Oh wait the only way these big businesses will be able to survive at 90% tax is to increase the cost of their product or just cease to exist. Cost of their product goes up now the UBI doesn't cover the expenses. They cease to exist fantastic now the smaller players can now play in the space. Oh who is going to get the oil out of the ground for the fuel? It is going to be rather risky for some 1 man band to dig up the oil required to fuel the cars. I guess we are going back to horse and kart!

    How about the world governments instead introduce a way that work places have a certain % of their workforce as human, this solves people not working and not giving money. Hey we can still tax the workers as they are earning an income. Oh sorry I only think of myself right @BigKahuna ?
     
  19. Esel

    Esel Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone votes for their own hip pocket. Plenty of high income earners voting greens/labor for a more equitable society.
     
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  20. Big Will

    Big Will Well-Known Member

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    Price of milk in china?

    Plenty of low income earners vote liberal.
     

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