Fence - to pay or not to pay?

Discussion in 'Legal Issues' started by Laurieload, 6th Nov, 2017.

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  1. Laurieload

    Laurieload Member

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    Hi Everyone,

    Would appreciate some input here.

    House next door to my PPOR underwent major renovation. Builders stuck their head over one day and said do you mind if we redo boundry fence, will go halves in materials etc, owner wants to keep costs down and do asap, can get trade prices. Sill me said sure no worries - tail end of a messy divorce, lots of my mind, fence was crap and needed redoing.

    I didn't ask for any paperwork and gave my preference for colourbond over pine so it looked nice from both sides. I spent two days cutting down old rotten timber fence (slightly into my boundary so I think legally mine). They hacked off old metal wire boundary fence but left posts and some metal wire sticking up in the strip visible on my side. They went with pine in the end due to ease without further discussion with me and the house sold shortly after. I wasn't happy with the fence at all but thought not worth worrying about as expected to be a cheapish job and I had other things on my mind.

    After the house sells I get their bill. Builders want me to pay for all materials claiming they have paid very expensive labour costs. Trouble is, the cost to me is almost 1K more than the cost of an almost mirror image fence the other side I had done 1 year previously via fencing contractors, which was in colorbond and I didn't have to lift a finger for.

    What is my recourse for a verbal contract of this nature? Am I expected to pay their builder the exhorbitant labour costs they are demanding, or would it be reasonable for me to expect that the total price would be in line with what the opposite boundary fence cost?

    We are still in discussions but starting to go around in circles and I am thinking I might need to go to QCAT.

    Anyway lesson learned - never go with a verbal agreement again.

    Thanks for all your help :)
     
  2. Owlet

    Owlet Well-Known Member

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    Option 1: Pay and move on
    Option 2: Don't pay and let them take you to QCAT to get their money. Your position would be you verbally agreed to a new colourbond fence, you removed the old fence yourself to reduce the cost to you for a new fence. The now previous owners (ex neighbour) chose a pine fence and instructed their builders to build it. (I would think this is who the builder should be seeking to pay up - unless they are the owner and builder) This fence was constructed without your approval and now you are being asked to pay.
    I am not familiar with QCAT and fencing rules in your state. In Vic - they can make you pay 50% of the cheapest of 3 quotes.
     
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  3. Colin Rice

    Colin Rice Mortgage Broker Business Member

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    Option 3: renegotiate with builder to reduce the cost inline with your original verbal agreement or you wont pay and go through the necessary legal process that will use up mr builders time, energy and resources. Chances are they will reduce and accept a lesser payment.
     
  4. Joynz

    Joynz Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think the building of a wooden fence vs colourbond will hold much weight as you should have objected at the time - when you saw them building a wooden fence.

    However, I wouldn't pay for more than half the cost of a regular wooden fence.

    It sounds odd that you didn't talk to the owners but only to the builders?
     
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  5. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    Did the neighbours issue you with a Notice to Fence?

    I'm not giving legal advice, but probably six or so years ago I agreed verbally to a new fence for an IP, thinking we would discuss it further, agree on type of fence, cost etc.

    Next I know the builder is in our yard, removed the current fence and neighbours wanted us to pay half of a $6k fence. To replace the chain wire that was there would be $2k which would mean we pay $1k.

    We went to the free legal service and they said without the Notice to Fence, the neighbours had done the wrong thing and we had no obligation to pay anything at all, as they had started the ripping out and rebuilding without the correct notice.

    We offered to pay $1k towards what we would have agreed to if they'd bothered to do anything more than ask us to pay towards a new fence, without any more details. They accepted our money with very bad grace, and told us if we ever tried to develop our block they would object, which they did.

    Things might have changed in the years since then.

    Maybe call the free legal service or ask @RPI from the forum if he can give his advice here.
     
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  6. Stoffo

    Stoffo Well-Known Member

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    Yep, dont pay.
    As per @wylie , go get some free legal advice.
    Option 2&3 are reasonable also, but do it all via email for the "paper trail" ;)

    Verbal discussion IS NOT AGREEMENT :mad:
    Particularly when its "hey, we want a new fence", YEAH PROBABLY, A COLORBOND ONE WOULD BE NICE, ok cool"
    This does not = agreement to pay for an overpriced timber fence.....
    No quote, nothing in writting, no pay :p

    Consider a survey to establish boundary, or measure yourself based on title details at least....
    Dig your heals in
     
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  7. Paul@PAS

    Paul@PAS Tax, Accounting + SMSF + All things Property Tax Business Plus Member

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    Your responsibility as a fence owner | Your rights, crime and the law | Queensland Government
    discusses the requirement to give written notice and include min 1 or 2 quotes. A verbal from the tradie already doing the work hardly seems compliant. There was no quote. Failure to quote doesnt mean its agreement to proceed. You may have agreed to willingly share fence costs when they were provided....Thats the issue for neighbours. NOT contractors. State law may otherwise impose a Fair Trading requirement for works to be approved

    The pine fence appears an acceptable material v's say colourbond otherwise.

    Legal advice regarding who the contract was with may be needed.
     
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  8. Laurieload

    Laurieload Member

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    Thanks so much everyone, really appreciate the replies. As far as I know the owner was interstate and put a builder manager in charge of all the renos. The builder manager is the one hassling me now and was the only one I spoke to. I'll take all your advice on board and get some legal advice and perhaps a couple more fake quotes for the fence. Cheers again :)
     
  9. RPI

    RPI SDA Provider, Town Planner, Former Property Lawyer

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    just make sure that if they issue you with any invoice that mentions the" Building and Construction Payments" act that you act quickly. You must submit a payment schedule or they can enforce it as a debt.

    Sounds like you don't need to pay but be wary of above.
     
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  10. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    @RPI - is that still the case with a PPOR (I don't believe it is the same in NSW or some other states)
     
  11. RPI

    RPI SDA Provider, Town Planner, Former Property Lawyer

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    The BCIPA or the fence?
     
  12. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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  13. Paul@PAS

    Paul@PAS Tax, Accounting + SMSF + All things Property Tax Business Plus Member

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    The owner-occupied part can be a trap in NSW. SecPayAct is a tough little nut if you dont approach it with caution. One benefit of the Act is its complexity + many small contractors dont use it.

    Love the QLD Act flowchart

    Security Of Payments Act Flowchart QLD
     
  14. highlighter

    highlighter Well-Known Member

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    Wait so they objected to you developing your land? What happened? That sounds stupidly petty of them.
     
  15. wylie

    wylie Moderator Staff Member

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    They did object but of course, objecting doesn't mean they get their own way. Our town planner put our mind at rest about this and he was quite confident we would be ok.

    Despite several objections we got the DA through.
     
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  16. highlighter

    highlighter Well-Known Member

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    Good outcome!
     
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  17. PJ1

    PJ1 Well-Known Member

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    Im suprised the builder is chasing you and not the previous owner. Its possible they have already paid him.