Do you believe in God ?

Discussion in 'Living Room' started by Terrychris, 17th Dec, 2016.

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Do you believe in God?

Poll closed 7th Jan, 2017.
  1. Yes definitely

    15 vote(s)
    35.7%
  2. No not at all

    23 vote(s)
    54.8%
  3. I don't know if a God exists

    4 vote(s)
    9.5%
  1. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    :) haha. Good one.
     
  2. Tim86

    Tim86 Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll get people like Dawkins saying evolution is fact because to non-scientists the term theory makes creationists excited because they dont know what theory means in science.

    I would say evolution has as much evidence as the earth being a sphere. You literally have antibiotic resistance and a new flu shot every year because the bacteria and viruses evolve. They replicate so often evolution is visibly observable. Just like the earth being a sphere is visibly observable.

    As for the big bang. A lot of evidence is still observable for the big bang. Such as background radiation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 19th Jan, 2017
  3. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    I understand that. My impression is that some of the posters in this thread don't know either but I kinda assumed we would be a bit more educated than the gen. pop. Not sure why? Bad assumption on my part.

    If you understand Evolutionary Theory as an overarching theory supported by multiple lines of evidence, some of the evidence is stronger and some of the evidence is weaker. For example, bacteria developing antibiotic resistance would be one of the stronger lines of evidence. Big Bang would be one of the weaker lines of evidence. It is understood that bacteria developing antibiotic resistance through adaptation/natural selection. There no competing theory that has more lines of evidence to support it.

    Unlike natural selection, there are competing theories to Big Bang which also have multiple lines of evidence. I haven't looked into it so I don't know which of the competing theories is best supported by the evidence.

    If you want to read some satire on natural selection, apparently Antibiotic-Resistance is because: God :confused:

    Antibiotic Resistance of Bacteria: Evolution in Action?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 19th Jan, 2017
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  4. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    @Tim86 And if you want to read satire on Evolution: apparently if you breed two dogs and don't get a cat, Evolution isn't real. :eek:

    9 Scientific Facts Prove the "Theory of Evolution" is False | Humans Are Free

    The only part I kind of agree with is:

    The educational system teaches children not to think. Any student who uses logic and solid scientific evidence to question the Theory of Evolution is ridiculed and insulted into submission. The students who submit become non-thinking robots who dare not question the dogma presented.
    I definitely experienced that although I never questioned Evolution, as it is simply an overarching theory to organise a large number of subordinate theories. It was a couple of the subordinate theories that I wanted to discuss. I definitely experienced that reaction though.
     
  5. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    Creationists manage to bring many lines of "evidence" into the picture in an attempt to disprove evolution. The aim is only to put doubt into evolutionary theory and to back up an existing belief.

    A quote I've just read. "Another feature of creationist literature is its approach to scientific authority. Creationists appear to make no attempt to weigh evidence; they often accept uncritically any statement made by a scientist which can be used to advantage, while ignoring any contrary opinions". Creationist Arguments: Overview

    Which all sounds familiar.
     
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  6. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    I agree. The whole point of Science is to collect, evaluate, compare, test, challenge and describe evidence. There is just no way to compare "evidence" for creationism with the quality of evidence for Evolutionary theory. IMO they are simply not comparable.
     
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  7. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    I was brought up an evangelical (I am not now). I struggled for a long time between evolution and a literal creationism, as I suspect many did. For some, that meant that evolution won hands down. For me, I no longer see a literal interpretation of creation stories. They are literature, and were never intended to be a literal account. It doesn't even make sense as a literal story- there's more than one account intermingled in Genesis. Literature is intended to make us understand ourselves, and the bible as literature makes a lot more sense than as a scientific textbook.
     
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  8. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    Not me @geoffw. It wasn't a struggle for me to switch from religion to science, not that it has to be an either/or proposition. No one ever asked me to choose, it was just a natural transition for me. For me, religion did not help me understand our world. I found the answer to every question "because God made it that way" immensely unsatisfying. Whereas I found the study of Science, particularly Evolution, immensely satisfying and I felt the study did help me to understand our world. That doesn't mean I accepted the whole thing uncritically. I don't think that is a very scientific approach
     
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  9. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    While that's the way I saw it then, it's not the way I see it now. The bible as literature isn't intended to explain the world, it's meant for people to understand themselves a little more.

    I say this now more as a person from the outside looking in.
     
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  10. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    Something interesting about the Bible @geoffw. I always assumed the stories were made up. However, researchers can sometimes trace Myths back to an event or events that happened in the past. I saw a documentary where some researchers were looking at some sites in the middle east who discovered evidence for some events that may have inspired some of the bible stories. One was a volcano that they thought might have caused a major tidal event that could have inspired the story of the crossing of the red sea. They didn't do any serious modelling because the point of the documentary was not to prove the bible. I found that really interesting. Science challenged my belief that nothing in the bible actually happened :D
     
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  11. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    Whether events actually happened perhaps misses the point I was trying to make- and a point I've arrived at in quite a roundabout way.

    This book was very interesting:
    The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (Penguin Psychology): Amazon.co.uk: Bruno Bettelheim: 9780140137279: Books

    It's to do with fairy tales, nothing to do with the bible. The point he makes is that fairy tales really resonate with children- and the reason they do this is that they contain things that really click in children's minds. Things that help them to cope with a hostile world around them, a world they are still coming to terms with.

    For me, Superman was the mythological creature I really identified with. I imagined myself breaking out of my secret identity and saving the world. And, in a way, it helped me adjust to the world.
     
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  12. datto

    datto Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes late at night I think about this crazy world and think to myself "who the heck created bogans and for what purpose?" "Why would a loving God create such a creature?"

    Did they evolve through natural selection? What is there incestry?. I mean ancestry.

    Or were they created some 6000 years ago. Appearing instantly on this Earth in a flanno and ugg boots, trying to make a bong out of folded leaves (I've seen someone try this).

    Maybe their purpose is to confirm the futility of Centrelink and the education system.

    Ahh the mind wonders. Hey is there a bushfire somewhere in the Druitt? Things are looking hazy out there. I feel like eating a kebab all of a sudden.
     
  13. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Evolution - the race that said "oh f%=@ it!" & stopped evolving.

    :) There's something in that. If you consider the similarities between the bogan, the hillbillies and rednecks - all come from geographically isolated areas (the M4 only encourages roaming), they're all related (thinking of the Blackwells), strong traditions (tatts, tshirt, winnie reds, piercings, Long Bay smile)


    The origami bong is the ultimate level of the art form - burns to nothing when completed to hide the evidence.

    These are the lifelines - meet/knock-up your future partners behind the dunny block and you're set for life

    What part of the kangaroo does the kebab come from?
     
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  14. datto

    datto Well-Known Member

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    :) There's something in that. If you consider the similarities between the bogan, the hillbillies and rednecks - all come from geographically isolated areas (the M4 only encourages roaming), they're all related (thinking of the Blackwells), strong traditions (tatts, tshirt, winnie reds, piercings, Long Bay smile)


    This is interesting. So if man lives in isolation a bogan race will evolve. It seems like boganism is like a default setting..... Isolation, lack of stimuli thence bingo... A bogan is created.
     
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  15. Bran

    Bran Well-Known Member

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    As literature, it's one of the greatest fictions ever written.
     
  16. Tim86

    Tim86 Well-Known Member

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    The Bible helped bronze age humanity understand some stuff incorrectly.

    Science helps modern humanity understand the whole universe.
     
  17. truong

    truong Well-Known Member

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    Thanks geoffw & Perthguy for sharing your stories,. My turn.

    I grew up in Vietnam in a Buddhist/Confucian family but it was more a cultural than religious thing. So I surprised myself when as a teenager, for no reason and without telling anybody, I took up meditation. It was a good experience overall, but short-lived as the communists were taking over the country. Persecuted and stripped of everything, we were sent to a labour camp. We escaped and became boat people. It was during these trying events and several personal tragedies that I realised the value of my earlier meditation training in sustaining me and my family spiritually. I even went through a sort of awakening that is still with me 36 years later.

    Those were tough years, including our first 15 years in Australia, but we received help from some amazing Christian people, a priest and several sisters in particular. The love and care they showed us was beyond words, all given freely and unconditionally.

    I was curious to understand the motivation that made them give their lives in such a way so I started to read the Bible at my first opportunity. The 4 gospels in the New Testament were most engrossing. I found in there an ethos very much to my liking and – no offence to anyone – rather Buddhist-like… as long as I didn’t see God as a man in the sky :). Certainly I don’t see prayer as asking for something but as a kind of communion – meditation in other words.

    I understand why people laugh at miracles however when I read the passage about Jesus healing a blind man’s sight I couldn’t help but recognise it as my own story when I received the “light” in my darkest day. It did feel like a miracle when it opened my (inner) eyes and changed me as a person.

    Nowadays I’m a follower of no religion in particular but I try to stay spiritual i.e. able to see and live beyond my little ego. In that sense atheist people can be very spiritual too and I meet them there.

    I’ve resumed meditation/prayer. My wife who took up meditation on my advice has been able to cure her PTSD, a left over from our boat people days that the health system was unable to treat for years.

    I had a science/maths education and consider myself a scientific person. While science and technology provide all the comforts and material possessions that I have, they do little to give me the peace of mind that I enjoy. If push comes to shove I’d rather lose my possessions and keep my peace.
     
    Last edited: 18th Jan, 2017
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  18. Angel

    Angel Well-Known Member

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    I can totally imagine David Attenborough saying these lines with his compellingly sciencey voice. With Datto's voice saying the rest.
     
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  19. Angel

    Angel Well-Known Member

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    Back in the bronze age, most people couldn't read and most of them didn't have "books". Hang on, wasn't a lot of the Bible set in the same era as Aristotle and Socrates?
     
  20. Ted Varrick

    Ted Varrick Well-Known Member

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    Datto, this is the most iconic post for 2017 so far.

    There is no reason why all PChat poster would not get behind a push for you being Australian of the Year Awards

    And if you just invent a recipe for a Sam Kekovich Lamb Lamington, well it's going to be a slam dunk.

    And the folded leaves thing.

    Innovation personified.
     
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