Do PM's get kickbacks from tradies?

This is the opposite problem to those whose PM won't organise maintenance.
My PM won't let me organise my own tradie, even though I've explained that this is a special, one time only, situation.

This is the background to the situation...
My property which is a ground floor flat in a 3-storey block has had bad mould infestation emanating from the bathroom ceiling for all the 7 years that I've had it. Every time it's cleaned up it comes back.
I figure there may be a leak coming from the bathroom above. But attempts to get the strata management to do something have drawn a blank. Strata management have said they'll fix it if I can prove to them there's a leak, but they won't go looking for it (ie. cutting holes in my ceiling) on the off-chance there may be a leak.
( This post is not about my mould problem though, that's just the context.)

I told my PM that I urgently needed to get things going on this since the problem has persisted for so long and since the tenants had just (as she had relayed to me) complained again. So I outlined by phone & by email a plan of the different stages that I think would need to be covered to get it fixed:
1) I would get a plumber that specialises in leak detection to do whatever he needs to do to figure out whether or not there is a leak coming from above.
2) If there is, we'd get the proof needed for me to get strata management to fix the leak.
3) After the leak is fixed I would engage mould remediation people, and duct cleaners, to clear up any residual mould.
4) Since the carpet is now rotting due to the mould, I would replace it with new flooring which I suggested would be timber laminate flooring (my preference) - and happened to name the local flooring firm that I intended to get it from.

Unexpectedly, she got back to me by email a few days later with a quote from my suggested flooring firm. I hadn't asked her to get a quote from them. In any case, it was very premature seeing as the first step (finding out if there's a leak from above) hadn't even been done yet.
I presume too that the flooring people would've had to have been given access to the flat to do the quote, since they had told me themselves that they would need to have access. (This becomes relevant later.)

Then a few days later she sent me a different quote from their (ie the PM's) preferred carpentry firm (which they always use) for cutting out the ceiling, replacing it, cleaning off the mould, and repainting for $3850. (Too much. I rejected it out of hand, which I now feel may have displeased her immensely.)
But more to the point - she had gone and "jumped the gun" again since:
a) My primary concern was tracking the source of the problem *first*, and
b) I had told her that I planned to engage remediation specialists separately, and
c) I had never asked for these quotes.

Over the years the PM's preferred plumbing firm has been in-and-out for various things, but their quotes always found trivial things like re-seating tap washers, fixing the cistern (again?), etc, but they always seem to miss the "elephant in the living room" (or, in this case, the bathroom) in that they never have mentioned that the cause for the (glaringly obvious) mould should be checked.

So I thought that, instead of using the PM's preferred plumber, I'd like to call in a plumber that actually specialises in this type of thing (according to their web page, anyway).
I rang and asked my PM what is the correct procedure for a tradie to get access to the flat.
She said that the best thing is for the tenant to arrange the time directly with my plumber, but she didn't give me the tenants phone number. So, after calling these plumbers first to let them know the tenant would be calling them, I rang her back but she wasn't there. I explained the situation to the girl on the switchboard and she said no worries, here's the tenant's number, call him yourself to get him to arrange a time.

I felt a bit uncomfortable calling my tenant directly, but at least it was an opportunity for me to reassure him that I'm aware of how chronic the situation is, to outline my plans for fixing it all up once and for all, and to offer to put them up in a motel if any of the jobs (especially the planned flooring) meant they wouldn't be able to use the flat.
I also mentioned in our conversation that, if possible, I would like to attend since I may need to make first-hand observations that I could then put to the strata management.
I then texted him, as promised, the plumber's contact details. He later texted back the date/time he had arranged to the plumber to attend. It was the following Tuesday which I had specifically said was the only day in that week I would not be able to get up to Sydney. (Grrr. But shrug, whatever's best for him.)

So the designated date/time arrives and I get a call from the plumber. "No one's here.". I called the tenant and said "The plumber's there now. Where are you?". He said that he'd re-scheduled it because he got called away for work.
I called back the plumber, who had at the same time just found this out for himself from his office, and he waived the call-out fee (on that occasion) because it had been rescheduled for Friday 2pm.

Friday 2pm arrives and I get a call from the plumber. No one was at home and he had tried repeatedly to call the tenant who either didn't answer or it went through to voicemail. I didn't call the tenant myself on that occasion.

I phoned my PM in order to express my displeasure with the tenant standing-up the plumber twice, but she wasn't in (apparently). But I got an email from her shortly afterwards that included the following incomprehensible statements:
1) "I have spoken to your tenant and he said no plumber has called him"
2) "I have given *** (tenant's name) the plumber's number to arrange a time with him direct". (!!?)

I promptly emailed back to say:
1) She had been misinformed by the tenant as he had arranged these times himself, and had failed to appear both times.
2) That since I'd already given the tenant the opportunity to arrange timings himself *next time*
- I would arrange the timing, and
- the tenant will be given 2 or more days notice of the timing (NSW requirement).
Was that over the top? If so, please understand I was very annoyed at this point.

She replied to this email on the Monday, mostly sympathising how bad it was for the tenant to have messed the plumber around, but adding on a cheerful note:
"I have called the tenant to check if the Plumbing jobs have been done – they were done today."
(This would have meant her "own" plumber, who had more little jobs to do that I had recently agreed to.)
But it made me think WTF:
1) If you want your plumber to go in to do his crappy little jobs. No problem.
2) If you want all and sundry to go traipsing through to give unwanted quotes. No problem.
3) But if *I* want someone in *of my choosing* to go in to do a special task, even for this one time only - all the problem in the world, apparently.

So I was totally ****** off at this point, and rang to tell her why.
But she wasn't in (again) so the poor switchboard girl got to hear my gripe about not being able to get my tradie in, while everyone else gets in no problem.

Obviously this (my angry phone call) was passed straight on to the PM who immediately emailed me a *re-considered* reply my email on Friday (about the tenant having made & missed the bookings).
This time she countered with the following instruction to me:
"If you have any Tradesman that needs access to the property – can you either send me by email their details so I can contact them direct. Or can you please get them to contact me."

I have interpreted her reply above (which was to my proposition that I would now have to book the tradie myself and just notify the tenant of it instead) as follows:
"Oh no you won't. No tradie goes in there without having to talk to me first."
Given her established keen-ness to rush ahead and get quotes (before I do?).. it makes me wonder.

I couldn't help but wonder too (I know this might sound crazy) whether I had intentionally been "taught a lesson" by having my own efforts to get a tradesman of-my-own-choosing into the property fail miserably.

Thanks for reading.
Any thoughts?

 

I think your complicating things once I got to the end.

onto your question.

Yes, I think many of them get kick backs etc, many are just not very good, many get irritated if you try and get involved - especially if your not experienced, but some will just assume your not.

You can send whomever you want to your property, but, I would tend to side with the PM, they should be going through the PM & also PM can make sure they can get in, so not sure why your getting involved with tenant.

So just get your trades to line up with the PM, problem solved ?

PS get on the phone also for complex things and be specific - "this is my plan, please do not get quotes for now."

 

Great story. Never heard of a PM picking up a kick back

It's your place, make your own arrangements. If the mould is as bad as you say best get onto it as it is a major health hazard and the spores will be impregnated throughout the house not just the wet areas.

It shld be done by the strata, but you may have to do the work yourself and claim back. Keep meticulous records of what is done by who and the costs.

 

Very convoluted story... if you want a specific plumber to quote some work, pass their contact details onto the PM and get them to do their job organising it?! Sounds like you over complicated the situation by trying to organise it yourself via the tenant.

 

A good pm should not collect kickbacks from trades and should work with your best interest at heart

A pm who lines their own pockets with landlords money through kickbacks with trades (or worse have ownership of the trade/reno business) should be sacked and one with morals appointed

 

There's two different issues which I've conflated:
1) Access.
I agree that in general the PM arranges work and arranges access. On this occasion, since I had chosen the tradesman myself, the PM had told me to get the tenant to arrange a timing with my plumber direct - which is what I did.
I may have overreacted by not wanting the tenant to get a 3rd chance to book, and then skip. But the law doesn't require me to extend that much courtesy. Particularly in a chronic health situation like this I have the right to make (or have made for me) a booking without the tenant's consent and just provide him notice of that. But whether or not the PM will be prepared to do that for me, and hopefully too give me the opportunity to attend (to have a squizz), as I would like to, seems to be an entirely different matter unfortunately.
2) Quotes.
I don't mind PM's getting quotes for routine stuff, that's their job. But when it comes to major work such as entire re-flooring surely you'd do that yourself ( I bet you would ) and not ask the PM to get the quote for you. As such (ie. it being non-routine major work) I feel it was somewhat "out of order" that she went ahead and did that without me asking her to, apart from that fact that I'd already set out things that needed to be done first.

 

Yes, that's what I've learnt from this for sure.

 

Na, if the PM has good trade contacts, I will ask them to get quotes from who they know, but I can usually see if someone is trying it on.

The PM should not have palmed it off to you & if correct notice is given, can organise to get them in without the tenant being there.

Not sure if your joking.

 

The tenant doesn't seem to be as concerned about the mould issues as you are, otherwise they would've made every effort to be there at the nominated time.

Due to their lack of concern, either park it for now or give them notice so you can sort it out while the property is vacant.

 

We have a pretty good group of trades, but there's still a couple of investors who prefer to use their own guys, eg their dad or a plumber they know from elsewhere. Pretty easy to note on their account. No big deal at all.

Not sure if kick backs was the reason @OmegaMan (its not the norm) but probably because you changed the process and that'd confuse most PMs who are basically glorified receptionists.

A good PM can guide you through things because they've been through them before. They'd also never stoop so low as to get kick backs or run repairs through their own business with a margin.

 

In the previous replies I see "good" applied to tradies and the PM. This seems to be the crux of the matter. You have a "bad" PM.
Change PM ASAP and establish the ground rules early.

 

PMs look after a large amount of work so need to have a database of reliable contractors. Yes, it may be more expensive than Gumtree subbies but they're a known quantity (to the PM) - it makes managing multiple workflows possible.

An experienced PM has seen many issues, not just once or twice but daily. I don't know any investors who have as much involvement with subcontractors as do the pms.

As for kickbacks - there's often a % stated in the management agreement & in many cases, you've agreed to pay a small % (which can be significant on larger works).

 

Precisely. Due to your input and others I have been able to think this through with a clearer head about "where did this go wrong" and have reached the same conclusion.

As D.T. suggested in a later post, the PM may have been taken aback & unused to me wanting to get my own tradie, and incorrectly adopted the knee-jerk response (uncooperative attitude) of "Oh well. If you want to get your own tradie, you can just organise it yourself then."
As I said in my first post, I had felt intuitively uncomfortable about doing that.

Ultimately this puts her final response to me into perspective ie. that I can get my own tradie but best to go through her to arrange it, as being a fair response.
It's just that at the time, with the "quote issues" that were also going on, I adopted a cynical view about her motives for that advice, which was most probably unwarranted.

 

That's how I feel about it now too. Because I feel that I "got burnt" by the tenant this time I'm loath to stick my neck out again in a hurry. Later perhaps, but I'm just gonna let it slide for now.

 

I wouldn't ever park a mould issue. The longer it sits the more it grows / spreads and then its more difficult / costly to remove.

Maybe this is a NSW thing? Its not very common here except with unscrupulous agents.

Yep, always best to keep a level head in this game.

 

One of my PMs does own a maintenance business which is all clear to me.

His handyman does the routines and fixes small things as part of my fixed contract.

Things like painting, new blinds and repairs has worked out a lot more competitive on price and efficient compared to using more external trades people.

I pay my PM the standard 1 weeks rent for the let fee. Then a maintenance fee per month (rather than percentage of rent) which includes up to 2 hours per month of included repairs and access to his crew on more extensive work required.

I don't see this as a kickback but a more unique model than your standard percentage PM deal.
Regular maintenance is also built in which is often proactive.

 

I work for several strata companies.
YES, there are those that imply a kick back, 10% in cash
Needless to say after not paying it I no longer get requested
Others I know in the game just add the extra cost to the final invoice

Sorry to hear your dilemma
As above, change PM

 

What suburb is this? Just to clarify you pay a flat maintenance fee per month + % of rent Management fee?.

 

It is in northern Brisbane, but this PM does quite a broad area (mainly north though).

The only payment I make relating to rent is the let fee, but that is not a percentage. The maintenance fee is purely a fixed fee which has nothing to do with the rent or change in rent.

If the rent doubled the maintenance / management fee per month remains the same.

 

Can't stress the mould issue enough. Mould spores travel in the air and can cause significant illness in susceptible people. The cost of a proper cleanup can be horrendus because often it grows behind cupboards which need to be removed to attack the mould.

As for the PM if you not happy with her, make a change she is working for you afterall