Do Americans understand how much trouble they’re in?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Lizzie, 3rd Jun, 2019.

Join Australia's most dynamic and respected property investment community
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. turk

    turk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    926
    Location:
    Brighton
    I would have thought that the above sentence bolded in italics would be the definition of the US detention camps
     
    MTR and Guest like this.
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "The end of democracy is nigh, because Trump said he could pardon himself"

    That's what it feels like the article boils down to.

    Fact: Trump hasn't pardoned himself.
    Fact: The detention centres didn't start with Trump.
    Fact: Abuse of Presidential power didn't start with Trump.

    I would say the United States is on a downhill trajectory in many ways, but Trump has just become an easy target to blame because a lot of people vehemently dislike him.
     
    Lizzie likes this.
  3. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Actually he did say he could pardon himself: Trump says he has 'absolute right' to pardon himself

    Detention Centres: agreed - but the current government has ramped up the inmates, and introduced child separation centres: How Trump Inherited His Expanding Detention System

    Abuse of power: agreed - but the current government abuse is significantly higher than previous elected government's : National emergency: Trump's 'clear abuse of power' faces torrent of lawsuits

    You will notice that this thread is NOT about Trump, but rather the overall destabilisation of democracy - where the elected representatives are no longer working "for" the people who elected them - and the exposure of the flaws in the current Constitution and Judicary systems.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
  4. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    No idea what you're taking about as there were no bolded italics in the post referred to. I'll repeat the Encyclopedia Britannica definition in case readers didn't follow the link to confirm the source:

    concentration camp | Facts, History, & Definition
    Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial. Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons.
     
  5. MTR

    MTR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    27,786
    Location:
    My World
    So you edited/deleted ?I also read what Turk mentioned, but now its gone??
     
  6. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Not by me, and "that" post is the same as I uploaded it. Perhaps thinking of another post.

    For your future reference, even if a post is edited after it's been quoted, the quote in the replying post remains unchanged
     
    Last edited: 3rd Jun, 2019
  7. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    The article isn't about the detention centres as such - it is about the point that senior government Senators ... elected leaders of the country ... were refused entry by guards. The democratically elected representatives of the people were rendered impotent, ergo the people of the US were rendered powerless in questioning any right of unjust imprisonment recourse, or confirmation of humanitarian conditions:

    Quote: Senators — the most powerful people in democracy, save the President — knocking on the door of a “detainment center”, looking for kids separated from their parents, only to be denied by guards who… "laugh at them contemptuously, call the police, and have them shooed away like nobodies"

    2 US senators stopped by police from touring immigrant detention facilities where children are held
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Big difference between claiming he has the right to do something and actually doing it.

    Fact: Trump hasn't pardoned himself.
    Yes there was, you need to expand the quote.
     
  9. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    15th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    11,654
    Location:
    Newcastle
    I think there has been a misunderstanding. I believe that the bolded section at the end of the quote was put in bold by Turk in order for him to emphasise something from Lizzie's post. It was not bolded by Lizzie at any stage (and I've confirmed that).
     
    Lizzie likes this.
  10. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    No, he hasn't pardoned himself - you will notice I used the word "could" - and the article never claimed he "did" pardon himself.

    You appear to be deliberately misquoting the article: "A President who invokes absolute authority to…pardon himself." ... and the article is referencing the second "pardon referencing" article I mentioned above: "United States President Donald Trump says he has committed no wrongdoing but has the "absolute" power to pardon himself, echoing sweeping arguments put forth by his lawyer Rudy Giuliani."

    In regarding to the "italic quote" (not bolded by me) ... the camps referenced in the original article are not refugee/detention/relocation camps as the occupants are not displaced persons as the per the definition from Britannica ... "They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons." .

    The camps fall under the definition of concentration camps ... "Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial."

    Again - this is not a Trump bashing thread - but rather a thought discussion about the breakdown of the US democratic and judicial system. Trump just happens to be at the head of a disturbing shift in the US government moral direction
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    wylie and geoffw like this.
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I didn't misquote the article.
    I wasn't suggesting the article said Trump pardoned himself (although the opening sentence could be read that way).
    I was just stating the facts.

    Where is the breakdown in the democratic system?
    If Americans really want Trump out of office they will have their chance next year. My bet is he stays.
     
    MTR likes this.
  12. MTR

    MTR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    27,786
    Location:
    My World

    Thinking same Trump will stay.... if economy keeps roaring

    Time will tell
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
  13. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Sigh - that was exactly what you were claiming as "your facts" - which, as pointed out was a misquoting (deliberate or not)

    "Fact: Trump hasn't pardoned himself."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
  14. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Out of the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of examples, I'll chose three simple one's to explain.

    1. The US has a GOP controlled Senate who's leader refuses to bring to debate the electoral reform bill that has been passed by the Dem controlled lower house. It's not that the bill isn't being debated, assessed and then fails to pass in the Senate - that would be democracy in action - the bill isn't even presented to the Senate for debate due to the obstruction of McConnell. One man holds the entire power of the ability of the Congress and Senate to pass legislation ... McConnell maintains that Senate won't take up election reform bill

    2. The US has a President that will readily sign a "state of emergency" to enable the sale of $6bil worth of war weapons to Saudi Arabia - but ignores real "state of emergency" situations like hurricanes/wildfires/floods that affects American's within the US. The GOP has deliberately obstructed, for over a year, a bill that would allow disaster relief funding to those affected by the above ... House fails to pass disaster aid bill after second GOP lawmaker objects

    3. The US has several governmental committees to check and balance all levels of power, the intention of which is to ensure this is no corruption, or excess of power held by any one man/block - and that the interests of the majority of American's is upheld via democracy. The Judiciary committee has requested - as is it's right - for access to an investigative report that "may" implicate the President in serious obstruction charges ... as confirmed by the investigation head. This request has been denied. The committee issued a subpoena for the report to be release for their viewing with the AG (who is supposed to be working for the best interests of the American people) has ignored the court ordered subpoena, implying the AG is above the law - and a President that has ordered federal employees to ignore subpoenas to appear before these committees ... 'Massive obstruction': Trump accused of ordering employees to ignore subpoenas

    I could also throw in that the President lost the vote by 3mil, but was bought to power by GOP designed boundary realignments. I could also throw in the issuing of inflated contracts to companies with direct financial connection to those who are doing the issuing. I could also throw in the fact that Kushner was not cleared by government security for sensitive information due to some concerning dealings, but was issued clearance by his father-in-law. I could also throw in figures that show GOP reps like McConnell and Cruz entered politics with very little money, received a modest (by executive standards) wage but have ended up multi-multi-millionaires through "donations" and bribes. I could also mention the Senators that were denied entry to the "concentration" camps as they attempted to ensure the occupants were treated humanely ... the list is really rather endless

    What I think is being missed is that, in a true and fair democratic society, the government is there to serve ALL the people and look after "everyone" - regardless of their social standing, abilities or background - not to self serve. line their own pockets or pander to a select few
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    wylie likes this.
  15. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
  16. MTR

    MTR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    19th Jun, 2015
    Posts:
    27,786
    Location:
    My World
  17. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Sadly, this is an example of the democratic system breakdown - many are not able to vote due to deliberate suppression and/or lack of access to polling booths (for some odd reason they hold their election during the working week, limit pre-vote ability and very few booths often in obscure locations away from public transport routes):

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45986329

    Example:

    Florida
    Some 1.5 million ex-felons will not be allowed to vote as the state is one of few to bar ex-offenders from voting unless the governor gives them a pardon. That number reportedly included almost 500,000 African-Americans

    Georgia
    More than 50,000 voter registration applications - 70% of them from African-Americans, according to the Associated Press - have been put on hold due to alleged problems with identification information (** this includes things like a hyphen being mis-entered by the registration dept).

    North Dakota
    A new law demands voters show identification that provides their name, date of birth and residential address. That requirement has a special impact on thousands of Native Americans who live in reservations with no street address - they have post office boxes instead.

    US voter suppression | US news | The Guardian

    ‘They Don’t Really Want Us to Vote’: How Republicans Made It Harder
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    wylie and Propagate like this.
  18. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Other breakdowns?

    - You have the EPA run by a climate change denier coal lobbiest
    - The Health department is run by an ex Big Pharmaceutical CEO
    - A Boeing Executive is in charge of Defence

    Some serious conflicts of interest there.

    Combined with the "donation" - or should I say bribe - system on all sides, and there is some serious arm twisting influence in play:

    Midterm big spenders: the top 20 political donors this election
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
    Propagate likes this.
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't have time to address these posts right now, but will try to revisit over the long weekend. FWIW I don't disagree with some of these contributing to a weakening of the democratic system, we have some of the same conflicts in Australia (i.e. revolving door between government and big business or other influential organisations, questionable donations to political parties, etc).
    Can you confirm for context that by "ALL the people" you mean American citizens?
     
  20. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    9th Jul, 2015
    Posts:
    9,618
    Location:
    Planet A
    Yep - all American citizens - regardless of their origin, faith, colour, financial situation, health, education, sexual orientation and any other aspect that makes them who they are
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10th Oct, 2021
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.