Crypto Crypto20

Discussion in 'Other Asset Classes' started by JK200SX, 19th Nov, 2017.

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  1. JK200SX

    JK200SX Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone had a look at this, or poured any money into its ICO?

    CRYPTO20 - Invest in cryptocurrency ICO

    From their website:

    "A crypto index fund that will use the ICO funding to buy the underlying crypto assets. No broker fees, no exit fees, no minimum investment and full control over your assets. Full blockchain transparency."

    A Vanguard of the cryto world?
     
  2. funkychickendancer

    funkychickendancer Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have invested in them and believe that it is the best way to gain exposure to the crypto market. Obviously the returns are lower than if you had picked the winner of the bunch but it is damn near impossible to do!

    You will ride out the mid to long term growth of the top 20. The only risks are a strong regulation of token investments using smart contracts or of course the entire crypto market going bust. Neither I think are going to occur soon.
     
  3. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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  4. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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  5. funkychickendancer

    funkychickendancer Well-Known Member

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    No real gain or effort saving? Not sure where to start. Either you haven't tried to balance cryptos yourself before or you're leaving the coins on exchanges which is the exact same risk as leaving them with token holders.

    Crypto 20 holds the top 20 cryptos by market cap and re-balances weekly. I have held the top 8 for over a year and let me tell you, re-balancing takes about 3 hours.This is assuming that you hold all over the private keys for every coin that you purchase and are securely storing them. I have done it twice in the past year and it is a massive pain.

    You need to transfer the over-weight coin from wallet to exchange.
    Sell over-weight balance.
    Repeat for however many coins that are over-weight.
    Purchase the under-weight coins that may or may not exist in your current holding (a new coin could have made the top 8)
    Then transfer each coin from the exchange to your wallet.
    All whilst crossing your fingers that the receiving/sending addresses are all correct to and from each exchange to and from each wallet. This is with only 3 wallets for 8 coins. To hold 20 you will need a MINIMUM of 7 wallets.

    Then you need to perform that weekly all whilst taking into account tax considerations. Still no effort saving?

    In regards to security risk. Every time you don't hold your private key on the blockchain that means someone else does. Whether this is an exchange (all of them if the currency is held there), a wallet (around 30-40% of them if they are beginner/user-friendly) or a token like C20. At any time an exchange, the wallet owner or the token holder of the smart contract can pack their bags and leave with your money. This is one of the risks you take with not holding private keys and I acknowledge that.

    You can purchase alt coins through coinspot except transfer in and out fees are a whopping 3% every time you re-balance, make a purchase or move the currency out of the exchange into a wallet. This places a serious dent in your returns. If you're keeping the coins on the exchange than you run the same risk that I described above of not holding the private keys.

    The only question is who do you trust more the ICO company or the exchange. Most likely the exchange but tonnes of exchanges have packed up shop and the risk definitely exists there. You need to do your own research when investing in any smart contract including C20.

    It is definitely risky leaving your currency in someone elses hands but you're paying for the ENORMOUS convenience of the top 20 coins being re-balanced weekly each coin max capped at 10%. I can only talk for C20 when I say I have been involved in slack forums and independent auditing firms with the company since they launched the pre-ico and I think that they are decent. They have enough "good will" in the entire crypto space and reputable members working on the project for me to accept the risk of leaving money with them.

    As for the link you posted there are probably hundreds or thousands of ICO's that have raised that amount of money and left. If you invest into an ICO that has raised only 374k you need to take a long hard look at the way you research crypto.

    Yes, you can store C20 on your ledger, it supports ETH and c20 is a smart contract token.
     
  6. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    Did not take this into account, my bad. If rebalancing is your goal, then it is definitely handy to have the top 8 (at any given time) rebalanced automatically like that, esp if it takes tax considerations off your hands.

    Still not worth the risk imo of entrusting everything to a token... like an exchange it's a single point of failure, and while I do trust exchanges more than a token creator, I'd rather hold all the private keys myself.

    Stepping back a bit: has the value of rebalancing been quantified for crypto? My current strategy is to let boomers boom, and only rebalance them when my crypto portfolio as a whole has reached a set % of my total liquid portfolio (with shares funds etc.)

    Also, Coinspot is 3% between crypto and AUD. Between cryptos it's 1%. Moving crypto out to your own wallet appears to be close to market rates, i.e. well under 1%.
     
  7. JK200SX

    JK200SX Well-Known Member

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    Well. as other have called it, I've invested some of my play money in C20 and some in IOTA. I'll keep you posted on you it goes.....
     
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  8. funkychickendancer

    funkychickendancer Well-Known Member

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    It's the top 20 but yup it's the best thing about C20 imo.

    Yes if you believe that fair enough but everyone has a different risk profile. If you are hodling and re-balancing most people just leave their currencies on exchanges so it can be a good opportunity for them without increasing the risk all that much as in both cases they don't hold the keys.

    You can compare re-balancing with spreadsheets. I have done it with the top 8 and it does work out slightly better. C20 claim to have done it with the top 10, 20 and 30. They also give the all of the calculations for you to back check yourself (which several members on the forum have done). The top 20 worked out to be the best investment from 2012 until August this year so they did that.

    The advantage of earlier investing was the huge pumping schemes for smaller coins around the 10-40 coin market cap so you can ride that wave.

    I was only under the impression that Coinspot allowed transferring between ETH and BTC, had no idea it allowed transferring with other cryptos. When I did it you needed to transfer to AUD then buy the coin, this is a big difference in fees if thats the case (3% on the way out and in). Also when I did my last re-balance I definitely got stung for more than that. Maybe they have changed fees over time.

    EDIT - Wow, you're right. It allows selling for other cryptos now. WOOHOO.
     
  9. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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    Been keen to look at some other coins lately, this could be the easiest way of exposure for a coin Luddite like me.

    I've signed up. I've got some BTC still which I'll use some of in the Crypto ICO.

    I've got a Coinjar and CoinBase account but neither of those can accept the C20 tokens.

    C20 site lists which wallets are best to accept the token with the specific recommendations being Metamask, MyEtherWallet, Mist, Parity and imToken

    I do not know anything about ETH wallets, (not that I know but about BTC wallets), anyone use any from that list and can recommend and know of an idiots guide to any of them ETH wallets?

    Cheers.
     
  10. JK200SX

    JK200SX Well-Known Member

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    I have started using MyEtherWallet.

    Essentially the process I have used to purchase C20 is as follows:

    1. Sign up to BTC Markets
    2. Deposit AUD into BTC
    3. Buy Ether (Ethereum)
    4. Transfer Ethereum into MyEtherWallet
    5. Open up Crypto20 account
    6. Transfer Ether to Crypto20 account and tokens are purchased.

    The reason why I chose MyEtherWallet was because it is compliant for both Ether and CX20 tokens.

    On a side note, can anyone recommend a good wallet for IOTA?
     
  11. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @JK200SX I think I get it now, MyEtherWallet is a paper wallet generator? I thought it was a web based exchange type wallet.

    My process looks like this then...

    1 - Opened Crypto20 already
    2 - Just sent some cash to my existing CoinJar account
    3 - Make a paper wallet from MyEtherWallet
    4 - Add the MyEtherWallet address into the Crypto20 account for receiving the minted token
    3 - When the cash hits Coinjar Monday/Tuesday I'll buy more BTC in my Coinjar wallet
    4 - Transfer Coinjars BTC to Crypto20 account
    5 - ICO day watch the token hit my Ether wallet! (assuming I don't forget and miss the cut off to tfr the BTC).

    I remembered I got some free ripples years ago, can't remember how I got them, just dug out the paper wallet for those, I got 1000 XRP which at the time was worth $10. 1000 are worth over $300 now, I'll be keeping a safer eye on that paper wallet just in case they go the same way BTC has gone.

    I also got some Bitcoin Cash from the August fork, but stupidly in a rush to try and understand it I sent them to a regular Bitcoin wallet instead of a Bit Coin Cash wallet, so lost them.

    I also lost 4 BTC when MtGox tanked as I'd left them on the MtGox exchange not really understanding how paper wallets etc. worked. I only paid about $90 each for them so only really lost a shade under $400 but rather annoying that they'd be worth north of $40k right about now.

    Cheers.
     
  12. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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  13. hammer

    hammer Well-Known Member

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  14. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    Have had a think about C20 vs overall crypto risk profile since this comment.

    I believe the reason why I'm happy to let my cryptos "do their thing" and bounce around within their own sandbox is because my sandbox is relatively small in relation to my main liquid portfolio.

    However if I were to allow my sandbox to increase in size, I would definitely want some sort of automatic rebalancing as the consequence of individual currencies failing can become too large to ignore.

    Possible solution is to leave the current sandbox as is, but add on a 2nd ICO sandbox... :rolleyes:
     
  15. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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    @hammer I've been cramming podcasts this last week, mainly the Bad Crypto Podcast. A lot of the ICO's interviewees sound like they have great ideas but can come across a bit too young and excitable.

    The C20 interview on the podcast link above is very exciting though, this guy is super switched on, it's well worth a listen.

    zla.io (Zilla) is something else I want to get a look at before the day's out, they are launching an app that will allow access to purchase ICO's direct from your phone, quickly and easily woithouth having to jump through a heap of hopps. Theire plan is to have a crowd researched database of ICO's which can be ranked in terms of potential theory for success. Mught be fun just for the access to ICO's and play with a few dollars of beer money.

    @chylld - for me, as a crypto luddite, I like that C20 will give me easy access to a more coins that IO wouldn't even dream of researching and buying. I can play with the main ones a bit and let C20 be a "catch all" type of thing for access to some of the others.
     
    Last edited: 29th Nov, 2017
  16. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    Well well, things happen quickly in the crypto world. One of my currencies has suddenly exceeded 1% of my entire liquid portfolio... time to rebalance within the sandbox! Keeping a full transaction log for tax time...
     
  17. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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    Care to share which one? Guessing not BTC, which seems to be falling back now after a ripper run over the last week. @chylld
     
  18. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    Dash. I dollar value averaged in at:
    • $390.32
    • $387.28
    • $384.88
    • $384.12
    • $368.61
    Now worth $1150.42 (CoinSpot prices)
     
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  19. Propagate

    Propagate Well-Known Member

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    Nice work @chylld I've heard a lot of chatter about Dash the last few days. I'm taking much keener interest in Crypto now I've got my wallets in order, got my Crypto20 sorted and found a bunch of old free Ripples I was air-dropped years ago. Time to start putting a bit of play money aside.

    I've been listening to the Bad Crypto Podcast, interesting and entertaining.

    Do I recall rightly from another thread that you're using Ledger Nano wallets @chylld ?
     
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  20. chylld

    chylld Well-Known Member

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    Ledger Nano S yep. Best of luck with your crypto journey :)
     
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