Coal

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Bayview, 7th Jul, 2017.

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  1. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    So says the Labor/Greens (and even the new Liberal/Labor/lite Mal Turnbull Gubb) ...

    Old coal power stations; $20 p/Kw/h...let's call it $30p/Kw/h in case I am lying.
    New coal power stations (if ever allowed to be built); $35-$40p/Kw/h....let's call it $50p/Kw/h in case I am lying.
    Wind power; $80p/Kwh....and heading towards $100p/Kw/h...subsidized of course.
     
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  2. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and also the 20 plus banks that said no to adani. Banks are increasingly no longer financing coal projects, because they believe it is no longer viable. (Elon Musk reiterated this today when asked on what he thought about coal investment).

    There is also now a huge and increasing investor tilt into ESG investing. Financial institutions/investors and managed funds are now increasing investment in companies that meet ESG index criteria. These companies are sustainable and future leaders, that meet environmental standards that are now demanded from the general public.
     
    Last edited: 7th Jul, 2017
  3. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    the Banks are making their decisions based on a Political stance not an economic one...they are bowing to pressure/threats from Greens Global Warming activists.

    Unfortunately the Banks have also drunk the Climate Change (renamed after the Global Warming scam was exposed) coolaid...

    The best estimate of any reduction in the World's temp by 2100 if Aus cuts all emissions today is 1/4000th of a degree....lets call it 1/10th of a degree so it sounds better for your argument.

    Lets all draw our attention back to S.A and the disaster they have created for themselves already with this futile obsession with renewables and Emmissions Targets....highest cost for electricity in the World, costing jobs as well, and; based on our 1.3% contribution to Emmissions Globally - will result in zero effect on Temps.

    Mal and Bill are hell-bent on following S.A. down the same rabbit hole...good one, boys.
     
  4. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my point of view, they do not want to be associated with coal because of public pressure. While this may be exerted by public or political pressure the end result of there decisions are purely economical. I for one as both a customer and investor of NAB would not be happy with the bank funding new coal projects. (Hence the economic flow on effect).

    Wow, was under the impression that energy production with as close to zero emission as possible was not just an admirable goal, but the pinacle of scientific/human endevour. Guess not.
     
  5. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    Zero emmissions will change precisely nothing......in terms of temperature....so why bother?

    The flip side is massively expensive, unreliable energy supply, and a massive hit to jobs across the Country, electricity bills which will make life harder for many average households; and for what benefit?

    Instead; lots of spending on a useless pursuit, which could be far better utilised in many other areas of the Community.

    The Earth warmed up and melted the last ice age thousands of years before the first car or coal mine was even thought of.
     
  6. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    Not Public pressure.....zealot activist pressure and intimidation.

    Once you move away from Leftist activist rhetoric you find that most average folks are starting to wake up to GW and CC as a load of rubbish.

    Try googling Tim Flannery for laughs for a start....

    Or if you are serious about hearing the truth; Denis Prager.
     
    Last edited: 7th Jul, 2017
  7. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    I believe the flip side to not embracing this new market will be even more costly. Imo you are not taking into consideration the opportunities that exist in this market, putting aside the enviormental aspect of it.

    I couldnt disagree with you more but i certainly respect your point of view. I think we just sit on polar opposite ends of the spectrum on this one.
     
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  8. radson

    radson Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as someone whose whole career has been in the fossil fuel industry...you are absolutely correct!

    The more we embrace, develop, research and implement renewables, smart grids, storage etc the better we can leverage these and export the technology and skills to China, India and Indonesia. Roughly 3 billion people of emerging middle class societies no longer accepting pollution as a price for upward mobility.
     
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  9. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    Carbon Emmissions - Carbon Dioxide - is not pollution; as far as I know.

    It has been shown that elevated levels of Carbon Dioxide produce better crops, plus a few other goodies:

    http://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2015/10/benefits.pdf
     
  10. radson

    radson Well-Known Member

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    That's so fu*&^n hilarious.

    Spend some time in Jakarta, New Dehli, Beijing and tell me there is no pollution.
     
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  11. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    Choking Our Health Care System With Coal

    Choking Our Health Care System With Coal

    "Studies show coal kills ten times more people than any other energy source per kWh produced, and ten times more people in the developing world than in America, because of our Clean Air Act. These deaths are mainly from fine toxic particulates emitted from coal plants."

    "So why not end coal, and use that money, and lives, saved to replace coal with other sources that do not impact health as badly. It would even be cost-effective to pay the coal folks not to work, just like we do for many farmers.

    You don’t need to work that hard or fast to ramp down coal. Most of our existing plants are old and will be retired in the next decade. Just replace them with something else.

    Natural gas is not bad. It only kills about 1,000 Americans a year".

    The world is moving on and technology in energy production is advancing at a rapid rate. We can choose to embrace this, or be left behind. SA has chosen to be part of that new economy and will reap both immediate and future rewards for doing so.
     
  12. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    you are talking about an entirely different thing; probably referring to car emissions and general waste pollution?

    I lived in L.A for two years - lots of smog there too, and mostly from vehicle emissions...no doubt same in Beijing and Jakarta due to massively dense populations and vehicles....compare apples to apples.. ..Carbon Monoxide is from vehicles.

    As far as I can remember; no coal fired power stations nearby in L.A...

    Which gets back to the Carbon Dioxide issue; already explained that it is not pollution.
     
    Last edited: 8th Jul, 2017
  13. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    Another example of the economic case not stacking up.

    Australian coal industry records large losses, experts advise against investing super funds in the industry

    Australian coal industry records large losses, experts advise against investing super funds in the industry - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    "All bar one of Australia's top 10 coal miners recorded large losses and massive write downs in the last financial year.

    It has been the fourth year of diminishing returns for one of the country's biggest exports, and analysts have said it shows the shift away from coal to renewables."
     
  14. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    Another example:

    AXA Investment Managers (AXA IM) today announces their intention to divest from companies that derive more than 50% of their revenues from coal-related activities

    AXA Investment Managers divests from companies most exposed to coal - Media Centre - AXA IM Corporate

    Andrea Rossi, CEO of AXA IM, commented:“As a responsible investor and active steward of our clients’ assets, we strongly believe that divesting from coal can help to de-risk portfolios over the long term by decreasing exposure to assets that are likely to become ‘stranded’
     
  15. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    this is due to heavy subsidies of the renewable energy alternatives such as wind and solar.

    If the Free Market forces were allowed to dictate what Companies were used and which Companies consumers selected for their power; the outcome would be different no doubt.

    The Governemt. Has be
    only because of the massive subsidies by the Govt for wind and solar.

    Without the subsidies and only free market forces to dictate; the results would be different due to cheaper cost of coal power.
     
  16. ollidrac nosaj

    ollidrac nosaj Well-Known Member

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    Solar Could Beat Coal to Become the Cheapest Power on Earth

    This Could Become the Cheapest Power on Earth

    "Solar power is now cheaper than coal in some parts of the world. In less than a decade, it’s likely to be the lowest-cost option almost everywhere."

    The economic case for coal has 10 years left at most (regardless of subsidies). why would any investor or financial institution of sound mind invest in what is clearly a defunct technology.
     
  17. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    this is due to heavy subsidies of the renewable energy alternatives such as wind and solar.

    If the Free Market forces were allowed to dictate what Companies were used and which Companies consumers selected for their power; the outcome would be different no doubt.

    Here's laugh;
    Malcolm Roberts
     
  18. radson

    radson Well-Known Member

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    No Im not

    Beijing
    Beijing Vows Deep Cut in Coal Use in 2017 to Fight Smog
    Beijing plans to cut coal use by 30 per cent to fight pollution
    Beijing Shuts Big Coal-Fired Power Plant to Ease Smog

    India
    What Causes Pollution in Delhi?
    Nasa satellite data from December 2013 revealed that sulfur dioxide emissions in India increased more than 60% from 2005-2012. According to a press release from Nasa, this data corroborated other research concluding that as of 2010 India is the world’s second largest emitter of sulfur dioxide after China. That research also found that, at the time, half of India’s emissions came from the coal-fired power sector.

    Jakarta
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s/news-story/cd32a76060a8e87dac5bf148170c22d7
    Harvard University researchers say pollution from those coal power plants in the pipeline will put 21,200 lives at risk — and that’s on top of the 6,500 premature deaths caused in the country by the existing 42 coal plants.
    Add to that the 600 people killed outside the country by Indonesian coal pollution and it’s a grand total of 28,300 coal-fired deaths a year.


    and yeah CO2 is pollution in high dosages...just like other 'natural' substances like O3, NO2, H2S, SO. Pb etc etc
     
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  19. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    Now you are shifting this whole coal argument away from GW and CC - which has been the argument behind the whole coal and Carbon Dioxide Emissions manta for decades - to a health issue.....

    It is widely known that coal used as a heat source is not healthy and actually dangerous due to the various byproducts from burning it - if you are in close proximity and with prolonged exposure.

    Ironically; if these heavily populated developing Cities were to use electricity for heating (made from clean coal)...they wouldn't need to burn coal to stay warm or cook with, and the smog issue would largely disappear (unless you then blame vehicle emissions which is another major factor).

    Hence; most developed Countries moved away from burning "dirty" coal and towards electricity or gas to heat houses etc several decades ago.

    I am old enough to remember coal and briquettes for heating as a kid...dirty and dusty fuel, and affects air quality inside the house for sure.

    All of the links quote burning COAL for heating (and cooking) as a major contributor to their Cities' smog and health issues - and they also mention GAS as a contributing factor to the smog in some circimstances when the weather factors are right...but they are referencing enormously high density of population Cities as well...of course this is going to skew the figures dramatically.

    You only need to visit the Loy Yang coal fired power station region in Gippsland - which I have done a few times while playing golf events over the decades; stayed in places like Traralgon, Moe, Yallourn etc - to see that smog and general air pollution is a furphy and is largely non-existent around there.

    And; coal related deaths make up only 1% of the total deaths for the region...in fact; as long as you are not living within a few hundred metres of the Stations; the effects and dangers are low...no worse than smoking cigarettes or driving a car, for sure.

    So; coal fired power stations placed away from communities is of very low danger for air quality and so on....

    But; this is not the argument that Greenies and alarmists have been pushing for decades - the argument is all about Global Warming...and then when this was found to be BS; it conveniently switched to Climate Change...what a joke.

    Will solar become cheaper than coal? Maybe.

    Meanwhile; we have hundreds of years of clean and cheap coal which provides cheap and reliable electricity, jobs and keeps businesses open and allows folks to turn on their heaters and air cons and not go broke.

    Instead; we are currently seeing a mad push towards these renewables which are less reliable, costing waay more, and will make zero difference to the world's temps.

    That S.A Premier is an idiot, and closely followed by Mal, Bill and most of the others.

    Imagine how stuffed things will be when Bill gets in and makes the Targets 50% renewable.
     
    Last edited: 8th Jul, 2017
  20. radson

    radson Well-Known Member

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    Yeah ok, People in India and Indonesia mainly use coal for heating..right! When the temperature plummets to 29 deg C in Jakarta at night, thank god for heating from coal!

    Victoria has close to 6 million people. Java has 180 million people in half the land size of Victoria. If you hadn't known already India and China are also pretty snug with people.

    Only?
     
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