WA awful tenants - loss of money exceeding way over bond

Discussion in 'Property Management' started by elcee1338, 21st Apr, 2021.

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  1. elcee1338

    elcee1338 Member

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    Hi, I'm looking to get some advice regarding my family's investment property regarding a few issues. I was wondering if we have any grounds to lodge a complaint about the property agent based on them not acting in our best interest.

    1. We were given routine inspection photos which showed that there were multiple beds - suspected up to 7 people living there without our permission. We asked the PM to keep an eye out for this. The PM did not do anything. Is it their duty to issue a notice of breach or advise us of steps we could take for this? There were also shopping trolleys, rubbish and dirt everywhere - the house looked disgusting. The photos showed this but the PMs did not do anything on our behalf to ensure the tenants cleaned this and keep the property in a good condition.

    2. The tenant's notice of termination was up but they did not move out of the house. The PM tried to get in touch with them but was unable to do so for a whole week. Even then, they did not give us the keys back. The PM kept telling us to hold off on applying to the court because it will take too long. Was this good advice? It felt like we weren't protected at all from our side - the message was pretty much let the tenant do anything they want with the property because we can't do anything if they don't give the keys back.

    3. The house upon final inspection was disgusting - cockroaches and maggots, evidence of smoking in the house, ALL of the tenant's junk left behind. We had to get fumigation, junk removal and cleaners to the house (which is costing us $4k out of pocket). Upon junk removalist going in, they found that there were heaps of needles under the bed etc. Shouldn't the property manager suspect that there has been drug use in the house? This wouldn't be very easy to hide if they were drug users upon inspections...

    It feels unfair that we are left with all this to clean up and having to pay for. Is any of this also a liability of the PMs to ensure this situation wouldn't happen? Do I have grounds to make a complaint to consumer protection?
     
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  2. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Do you have landlord's insurance?
     
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  3. elcee1338

    elcee1338 Member

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    We do have landlords insurance but it can only cover so much. The PM told me today that she's not sure if insurance will still cover as there were needles at the house... She has put in an inquiry to the insurance company about this pending confirmation. I feel like we are just backed up against a wall right now with no help or protection on our side.
     
  4. thatbum

    thatbum Well-Known Member

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    Honestly this sounds like a pretty standard case of a crappy tenant. It also sounds like they're out now.

    What is it do you want to happen exactly? If it's to blame the PM, then why are you still using them?
     
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  5. Joynz

    Joynz Well-Known Member

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    Does your policy say you aren’t covered for cleaning if there are needles in the house? That sounds odd.
     
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  6. Tom Rivera

    Tom Rivera Property Manager Business Member

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    - If you issued termination in response to being uncomfortable with the occupants and condition of the tenancy, isn't that you and the PM responding to the situation? In this case there's probably very little point in that breach notice if you're not expecting them to remedy the breach and live happily ever after.

    - It sounds like the Property Manager did end up getting them out without Tribunal, how long did that take? I'm not sure what about wait periods in WA Tribunal, but it does sound like the PM was right about getting them out without a hearing? That said, I would ALWAYS apply to tribunal for vacant possession if the tenants failed to leave- in QLD for example if we don't apply within 2 weeks you have to start the notice to leave process all over again...!

    - Depending on your insurer, they wont cover pest control or clean up (some cover severe clean up, yours doesn't look to be expensive enough), but they should cover damages and any arrears.
     
  7. Terry_w

    Terry_w Lawyer, Tax Adviser and Mortgage broker in Sydney Business Member

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    Did you ask them to?
    In hindsight no.

    why?
    only contractual and negligence.

    You can always complain but what good would it do. You might be able to sue the agent instead or in addition.
     
  8. elcee1338

    elcee1338 Member

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    We would like to receive some kind of compensation from the property agent for the clean up fees as we feel that they had some liability to ensure that the house wouldn't end up like this.

    Our plumber who is a friend went to do some work on the property and suspected that there were 7 people living there. We told 1 PM to keep an eye out. She did nothing. We were passed on another PM (they had a high turnover rate) which did an inspection in December 2020 and showed pictures of the condition and said it was in bad condition and not to extend their lease. He also suspected there were more people living there. NOTHING was done about this. Isn't it the PM's job to be more proactive to make sure they cleaned the house up and warn them about letting people stay there?

    Now that we have found needles, it is very concerning that the PM didn't know anything about this. I would assume it is very hard to hide that you're a drug user and all the needles during inspection?
     
  9. elcee1338

    elcee1338 Member

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    We asked them to keep an eye out about this but they didn't do anything.

    Sure, I guess I wanted to know given the situation do we have grounds to complain about the property agent's negligence? We also had to go through 4 different property managers in the course of a year because of their high turnover rate so there was a lack of continuity in communication.

    If we complain to consumer protection in WA, they will do an investigation and can help us request for compensation.
     
  10. Paul@PAS

    Paul@PAS Tax, Accounting + SMSF + All things Property Tax Business Plus Member

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    You seem to have been aware of the issues and deferred to the agent who did what they were asked and they advise you to not follow the court approach and that not bad advice. Frankly knowing the tennats were crap and expecting things to be "managed" by the PM isnt logical with bad tenants. Eviction and cutting losses is the way out. That happended. Move on. Learn and get better tennats. is the property a type that attracts bad tenants ? Be more cautious with who goes in next. eg they both have jobs and clean kids and look like they are decent. Not a houso on welfare who has more tattoos and piercings than hair.

    The PM isnt there to monitor daily inhouse drug & alcohol consumption. What does a addict look like ?

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    or
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    or
    upload_2021-4-22_12-19-44.jpeg
     
  11. Perp

    Perp Well-Known Member

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    "Keep an eye out" is a very vague direction.

    Did you ask them to issue a breach notice, and if so, on what grounds?

    Unless it's a 2 BR or smaller house, 7 people is probably within the occupancy limit, so that's not something you could have issued a breach about.

    Even if the PM had known the tenant was a drug user, it's arguably irrelevant. You can't breach a tenant because they engage in criminal activity that's unrelated to their tenancy.

    If there were maggots and filth, you could arguably have issued a breach notice on that basis (health and safety) if it was like that during inspection, but it may not have been. Likewise if needles had been lying around during inspection. But just knowing that the tenant is a drug user is not the basis for a landlord to do anything.
     
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  12. The Y-man

    The Y-man Moderator Staff Member

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    Sorry to hear - but resi property is like this. The laws are very much in favour of the tenants - you may not think it "fair" but it's how it is. That's why I say it is a pretty capital intensive exercise compared to indirect investing like comm prop trusts and shares.

    Unfortunately there are times you can change tenant and PM and end up with the same situations again - it can happen. You can mitigate to some degree with careful vetting before taking them on - but that's no guarantee either. You just have to be ready for a major clean out / refit pretty much at any time....

    The Y-man
     
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  13. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

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    If you have LL insurance, use the bond money for cleaning, as insurance will not cover bad housekeeping. Use the insurance to claim for damages.
     
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  14. MB18

    MB18 Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like the tenants were the problem, not so much the PM.

    The PM basically told you they were bad tenants and got them out.

    The PM and you can suspect all you like over how many people are really living there and what they are doing, but short of ending the tenancy as has happened, you are pretty powerless to act on what you suspect but is impossible to prove (at the time) anyway.

    There is only so much a PM can do within a given framework, ultimately its the tenants responsibility to not be a grub, and yours to accept the risks of being a landlord.
     
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  15. Coen

    Coen Well-Known Member

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    The property manager should know to issue a breach notice without the owner having to request it. Otherwise what's the point of having a manager if you have to learn all the rules yourself and make it happen.

    Does WA have different rules to Qld regarding number of occupants? Because in Qld the lease states how many people are allowed to reside at the property, and if more people are living there you can breach them.
     
  16. MB18

    MB18 Well-Known Member

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    As has been discussed in another thread, actually proving that more people are living there is next to impossible.
    Whose to say all the beds aren't for occasional guests, whose to say who is a guest and who is actually a resident.
     
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  17. Westminster

    Westminster Tigress at Tiger Developments Business Member

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    I'm pretty sure a property manager can't breach a tenant without the permission of the owner. Normally a PM will ask you, the landlord, if you would like to breach if they find evidence of something that can be breached.

    Tenants can be breached for not keeping a place tidy and they are generally given a certain amount of time and then reinspected to ensure that the breach has been remedied.

    In this instance the only thing that I can see that was really breachable was cleanliness.

    It is hard for a PM to "keep an eye" on something if they are doing inspections every 3-4mths. The only way for them to be able to visit more often is via a breach and reinspection as outlined above.
     
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  18. Coen

    Coen Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly, the RTA has advised in the past that you don't have to have absolute proof to issue a breach, you just have to reasonably suspect something. Just throwing that out there ... but, yes, there is only so much a breach notice can achieve.
     
  19. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    Is that multiple choice?
     
  20. jared7825

    jared7825 Well-Known Member

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    This is spot on.

    OP's attitude of blaming and wanting compensation from the PM is ridiculous, why in your mind are you not holding the tenants responsible they have done the damage not the PM? Others have mentioned this - it is the risk you take and cost of doing business
     
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