Australian gun laws - should they be reviewed?

Discussion in 'Living Room' started by Mombius Hibachi, 17th Nov, 2015.

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  1. catsteve

    catsteve Active Member

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    I think its good we don't suppress discussion. so far its been polite with a wide range of views expressed.
     
  2. Peter_Tersteeg

    Peter_Tersteeg Mortgage Broker Business Member

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    I stand corrected. The Hectorville siege (3 people) and Hunt family murders (5 people) have been the only gun mass shootings since 1996. 8 people in 19 years. The rest were arson, stabbings, a series of murders over time or less than 3 people.

    Your own evidence makes it clear that since 1996 gun related mass murder has significantly reduced.

    The graphics from the original post can be interpreted in any number of ways, it can also be correlated to population density. These are not facts at all, it's manipulation of data to support an argument. The anti-vaxers do this a lot as well. This sort of data can be present to support any number of arguments for both sides of the debate.

    My views are fine, but is there any particular point you disagree with? I've outlined some of the major points of Australian gun laws, which do you believe need to be eased and why? If you're going to argue that our gun laws are too strict and unnecessary, you should probably address the specific points of those laws.

    Please give me an example of an incident where in a mass shooting scenario a civilian ended the attack prematurely using a gun as self defence. It probably does occur in the USA from time to time, but it doesn't tend to work when a couple of kids go on a shooting spree in a high school.

    You've also failed to address one of the biggest gun related tragedies, that being children hurting themselves or others when finding a gun and playing with it. It happened a lot prior to 1996, it still happens a lot in other countries with liberal firearm legislation. If it has occurred in Australia since 1996 it's extremely rare to the point where I can't recall a single incident.

    I do acknowledge that there's some countries that have significant gun ownership and don't have the problem levels of the USA. Israel and Switzerland easily come to mind (I've visited both). They're culturally very different to many other countries, perhaps compulsory military service contributes to their more responsible gun culture. Despite this, these countries also still have significantly more mass shootings and accidental deaths than Australia.

    @Corey Batt has made some valid arguments that there is scope for a review of gun laws, but for the most part the core components of restriction of access, limiting the type of firearms available and safe storage or weapons do have benefit and I'm yet to see a legitimate argument that they need to be eased.

    This isn't the first time you've suggested that Australian gun legislation is too strict, but the arguments are always based on flimsy and circumstantial evidence and they never actually address specific points of the legislation. The reality is that gun related violence in Australia has reduced since 1996. Easier access to firearms might save a few lives in a few instances, but it will come at the cost of significantly more lives in many, many more instances.
     
    Last edited: 18th Nov, 2015
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  3. Mombius Hibachi

    Mombius Hibachi Well-Known Member

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    Ouga, there are a number of countries worldwide that have a gun culture, in that people have the right to carry. Which is as it should be.

    I firmly believe - and this is just purely my opinion - that Paris was targeted (in part) due to the tight gun laws.

    I also very strongly believe that it is only a matter of time before we see a similar incident here in Australia.
     
  4. Mombius Hibachi

    Mombius Hibachi Well-Known Member

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    So you support the suppression of freedom of expression and open debate?
     
  5. Ouga

    Ouga Well-Known Member

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    "Trying is the first step towards failure" Homer
    I agree with this, however in my experience seeing this topic discussed on forums, this is a fruitless discussion: people who want more guns will still say they want more guns and people who are happy as is will still remain happy as is.
    Each side will post "evidence" supporting their claim.
     
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  6. Ouga

    Ouga Well-Known Member

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    "Trying is the first step towards failure" Homer
    You can believe what you want to believe regarding why Paris was chosen as a target. There are a thousand different reasons why it could have been chosen as a target. Pointing gun law as a reason is not any more valid than any other reason.
    Whether or not this will happen in Australia is only speculation, but of course all Western societies are targets - especially the ones engaged in fighting against ISIS - however having people carry guns is not going to reduce this risk. You choose to believe this illusion, it's your choice.

    Oh that's exactly what I said! :rolleyes:
    You obviously are not going to change your mind about this, so what's the point of this topic?
    You are for more guns, I am for less guns.
    We can write a thousand posts about it and in the end we'll still be in the exact same spot we are standing right now: it is a sterile debate, it does not lead to anything. People get sucked into this as it is a topic that generates strong opinions on both sides, yet yields nothing.

    Anyway, I won't be wasting more of my time on this fruitless conversation: you support guns, think they make us safer, I think it's the opposite, and that's that. Now we can all watch how many more pages get written about this.
     
  7. Mombius Hibachi

    Mombius Hibachi Well-Known Member

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    Ouga, if the topic doesn't interest you, don't post in the thread. It's as simple as that. Just because you don't like it and think the topic should be removed, doesn't mean everyone else feels that way.

    You are projecting your views onto everyone else, in that you think nothing productive can be garnered from the subject. If you believe *you* will get nothing from the subject, that's fine. But don't project your view out so as to apply to everyone. You speak for yourself, not the forum as a whole.
     
  8. inertia

    inertia Well-Known Member

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    I always found this to be a dodgy premise. How do (would?) you store your guns as a responsible gun owner? In NSW, you are required to lock up your guns, and store your ammo in a lockable container (which may be inside the gun locker). In the case of a home invader that is actually planning to cause you harm, what chance do you have to wake up, open your gun safe, open your ammo locker, load your gun, take action?

    I used to be super-anti guns, but believe it or not I have relaxed that stance. Statistically, there are a number of countries with gun ownership at the same or higher level as the USA, and they don't have the same problems. I have issue with the attitude of USAsian, not with guns.
     
  9. AndrewTDP

    AndrewTDP Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how the argument of "well we already have gun related deaths in Australia" is supposed to be an argument for increasing the availability of guns?
     
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  10. inertia

    inertia Well-Known Member

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    I hate to do the pro-gun lobby's job for them, but to be fair, most of the mass shootings in the USA have occurred in gun-free zones (eg schools)
    Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?
    ‘Good Guy With A Gun’ Was On UCC Campus At Time Of Massacre

    There are also articles out there commenting both sides of the statistics around places that allow concealed carry and those that dont, etc. etc. and of particular interest is that mass shootings in the USA make a very small percentage of gun deaths (sub 1% I believe), so arguably not statistically relevant.
    The NRA Myth of Gun-Free Zones

    Cheers,
    Inertia.
     
  11. Bayview

    Bayview Well-Known Member

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    The point is; the blokes with the guns who were there shooting should not have had easy access to a gun/guns in the first place.

    Since our gun laws were tightened after Port Arthur, I don't remember a similar event taking place in Aus.
     
  12. Ozzie in Texas

    Ozzie in Texas Well-Known Member

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    Sweetie - I have previously worked in gang land East Los Angeles and after 12+ years in Australia, my family moved back to San Antonio.

    I miss slow news days and weeks and months that you experience in Australia.

    I hate hearing about another mass school/university killing........or the recent sad story about a couple of toddlers playing cops and robbers and one accidentally killing the other because their ***** father left his gun sitting on top of the fridge and the kids got to it. Or the crazy jilted lover who kills the ex and extended family.

    Texas has just passed legislation allowing college kids to open carry.....on the bogus claim that everyone has the right to bares arms and protect themselves. Haven't we seen enough innocent people murdered just because a kid is having a bad day.

    As for the stats.......there is no such thing as national gun control laws as there is in Australia. If one state in the US decides to impose restrictions, you can always go to your nearest Walmart over the border to buy your assault rifle.....or better still, buy online.
     
  13. Phantom

    Phantom Well-Known Member

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    Since 1976, every 3 or so years (some periods more frequent) mass murders by shooting have taken place in Australia all the way till 96 (Port Arthur).
    After that only 3 incidences have occurred killing 10 people combined. With one of those a man who killed 5 people in his family by shooting.
    I started totalling the deaths from 76 but stopped as it was taking too long. Believe me, there were so many.
    From 96 till now, which is almost the same time as from 76 -96 (20 years) there definately does seem to be less mass shooting events and the amount of people being murdered is definately less per massacre.
     
  14. Mombius Hibachi

    Mombius Hibachi Well-Known Member

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    Don't patronise me.

    I am of the firm belief that using the US as an example of maintain heavy handed gun laws is spurious. As I stated, there are a number of countries with gun cultures, none of whom have issues with mass shootings like in the US. To me, the mass shooting issues in the US have little to do with guns and far more to do with the culture in general over there.
     
  15. inertia

    inertia Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, I like our laws. However, to be devils advocate again, and recite the pro-gun mantra: people committing crimes care less about the legality of their firearms.

    I am more concerned about random untrained people having guns in their backpacks and purses than I am about the rare likelyhood of a mass shooting.

    Cheers,
    Inertia.
     
  16. Ozzie in Texas

    Ozzie in Texas Well-Known Member

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    I am not sorry if I have offended.....because, Australia is the shining light that is often used as an example here in the US of what can be achieved through effective national gun controls.

    Have a look a murder rates in the US. Is that seriously what you want in Australia.
     
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  17. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm - wondering how you see these stats ... nine "massacres" in 20 years ... one was really a serial killer (Snowtown) ... 1 murder/suicide ... only 2 "shooting" massacres ... the rest were a combination or arson and stabbing/bashings ... compared to 33 in the USA in the last 16 years ... think that speaks for itself really.

    Where are you getting your "mis-information" that "tighter gun laws leads to more gun violence" ... and no other country in the world has a gun culture like that of the USA ... many civilians in Switzerland own guns - but all ammo is keep at central secure and controlled locations, not in the vicinity of the gun.

    What happened? Did you try to get a gun licence but was denied? Why do you "want" to own a gun?

    And yes - I have owned guns - had sporting licence - shot and skinned animals (not something I'm proud of) - target shot as a hobby ... now, nothing but armed invasion would encourage me to pick up a firearm again.
     
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  18. Perthguy

    Perthguy Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the situation, but yes, I would be very reluctant to fire on another human. The reason I qualify this with a "depends" is this story: a woman opened the door to find a gunman who asked her 'Live or die?' She fought back, got control of the gun, shot him and killed him. So maybe in a 'live or die' situation, I would fight back. Anyway, I like how the gunman gave her a choice of 'live or die' and she chose "live".
     
  19. Mombius Hibachi

    Mombius Hibachi Well-Known Member

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    You didn't offend me; you were being patronising. I'm going to go ahead and assume you understand the difference between the two.

    By whom? Kumbaya types who think human nature can be fixed by simply 'being excellent to each other'? That's unrealistic in the extreme.

    Since you made this statement, I'm going to go ahead and assume (again) that you didn't read my last post prior to quoting it.
     
  20. inertia

    inertia Well-Known Member

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    Dammit, I'm agreeing with Mombius again. Although I would phrase it as "countries with gun ownership penetration" rather than culture - the USA culture is unique to its own!

    Cheers,
    Inertia.
     
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