arrrghhh Sydney trains

Discussion in 'Living Room' started by Gockie, 6th Apr, 2018.

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  1. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    Crazy - I don't know as I simply get reminded by hubby to register before we head south then it automatically comes off the credit card.

    Personally I would rather pay an extra 1% in tax and have no tolls anywhere
     
  2. hammer

    hammer Well-Known Member

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    I have always found the public transport in Sydney to be fine.

    The trick is to use Google maps and opal card.

    Same goes for just about every other city. Even brisbane! (Shudder)

    Google maps plans the trip and is always aware of any track closures, congestion etc.

    Having an opal card avoids most of the pain discussed here...even if you only go on the train occasionnally.
     
  3. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

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    It's crazy! Hubby set up the scanner several years ago now, so that it automatically takes a lump sum of $40 at a time off the credit card. We don't really do many drives anymore than need a toll road, so when checking the credit card and I noticed that there'd been three payments ($120), I thought there was some kind of mistake. Hubby phoned them & got a print out of the trips....yep, it was correct, $120 in a month for tolls for someone who doesn't really go into the city all that often. Some of them charge a fee for a section of a road, so there's more than one toll to pay. During that month he drove to the airport twice & once to Cronulla. They were the main culprits with a few other smaller trips.
     
  4. Gockie

    Gockie Life is good ☺️ Premium Member

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    But we also tend to get unpredictable rail system meltdowns too... Not really an issue off peak, but peak evening... you've got thousands of people trying to use the system to try to get out of the city and since no or few trains run, the crowds keep building up. Particularly for the trains heading west. People can't even make it onto their platform at Town Hall. And Town Hall station is hot and stifling. You want to spend as short a time at the station there as possible.

    And for the deep underground platforms at Town Hall..... I worry if a fire was to break out, people cannot get away from that platform quickly. All the commuters end up taking an escalator (which cannot cope with the volume of commuters) or stairs. All hell would break loose.
     
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  5. geoffw

    geoffw Moderator Staff Member

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    Google Maps has an option to show routes which don't have tolls. With a time and distance estimate of the alternate route, you can decide whether it's worth it.

    Generally I find it works better in Melbourne.
     
  6. larrylarry

    larrylarry Well-Known Member

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    That Thursday... Burwood fatality. I arrived at Wynand and saw hordes of people weren’t able to get onto the platform. I turned back and walked back to office to do more work.
     
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  7. skater

    skater Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does, however I find that some routes are just too painful to not take the toll roads.
     
  8. Eric Wu

    Eric Wu Well-Known Member Business Member

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    well I did check the timetable on at the station before got on, but that train terminated in 3 stops. had to jump on a different on with the advice from the station staff.
     
  9. Eric Wu

    Eric Wu Well-Known Member Business Member

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    it was a bit nightmare.
     
  10. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to pay >$3k for toll roads that I don't use (I don't drive much)
     
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  11. Lizzie

    Lizzie Well-Known Member

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    I would use a toll road no more than 2-3 return trips a year (and some years none) - we barely have a traffic light - but I'm thinking of the greater good for the entire community.

    Need more of that - thinking of everyone
     
    Ed Barton likes this.
  12. Smuh5

    Smuh5 Active Member

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    Sorry to hear that. I totally agree, the transport system in Sydney needs improvement!
    In regards to the ticketing debacle, I have had instances where I have topped up my Opal and it has not shown up on my card itself till 24-48 hours later. It can be so annoying especially when I have to top off in a rush!
     
  13. ORAC

    ORAC Well-Known Member

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    For a public transport system, in particular a rail-based transport system, its performance can be judged on the level efficiency, safety, capacity, availability, punctuality, frequency, comfort and cost. The Sydney rail network is a complex network - it has typically been a combination of commuter rail, mass transit, long distance and freight rail rolled into one. Traditionally, other countries (i.e. UK/Europe) had segregated their networks into separate functions (re: London Underground vs Network Rail), but as Australia being a vast country, with no previous infrastructure or cities, the development of the railway paralleled the population growth and expansion of the cities. The model had served the city well but with a rapidly expanding population the architecture of the Sydney rail network is probably not aligned to best practice mass transit systems due to these legacy reasons.

    Ways to build capacity include building additional lines, trains with greater carrying capacity (with more efficient braking/acceleration and shorter dwell times) and improved signaling and train control. In mass transit systems, typically the lines are physically segregated with platform interchange (i.e. passengers change at nominated stations to continue their journeys). This method of mass transit is popular in modern systems (e.g. Singapore / Hong Kong) as well as traditional systems (e.g. Paris, London).

    Hence, ways to improve Sydney's rail network include:
    - Build new lines / mass transit systems. This is happening with the new Sydney metro project which will feature "driverless" trains and a "turn up and go strategy".
    - Dis-intermediate the existing Sydney trains network further into fully segregated network (attempts have been made to perform some of this (T1, T2 etc) and the previous clearways program. However, a change in passenger acceptance and operations is required to go further. For example, the bottle-neck is the underground part of Sydney trains (the headway - time interval between trains is about 2 minutes - trains need to funnel into the underground then go somewhere else). One could say operate a T1 service from the western suburbs into Central, then passengers alight to a dedicated underground loop or shuttle service underground and to say North Sydney (this could be driverless dedicated service with say 90sec headways), and then get on another train to go up the North Shore. Currently, one train service does this, but in a true mass transit metro style, one would further segregate the lines to avoid bottle-necks, provide redundancy and resilience, and mutually exclusiveness into the network. As mentioned, it would require passenger acceptance and a change to operations to do this. There are some other infrastructure issues such has having sufficient turnbacks/turnarounds, platforms, smooth interchanges, temporary storage, and other facilities to make it work.
    - Improvements in signaling and train control technology. Sydney's trains current signaling system is based on fixed-block 3 and 4 aspect signaling (one train is allowed into one signal section at a time). This a very conventional technology, advances in technology include "moving block" / "virtual block" signalling which can allow trains to run closer together according to the their braking distances at their given speed, thereby improving headways. Sydney's trains signalling is a complex system and step-change is challenging and costly.
    - Continued improvements in the reliability of rolling stock.
    - Improvements in fare collection (use of mobile devices), passenger information, real-time awareness of train movements and location made available to the passengers, etc.

    Ultimately, the aim would be have a metro style of operations where from a passenger perspective, its about knowing there is a train every few minutes (based on demand factors) rather than ruling one's life by a timetable, in conjunction with improving the performance mentioned above.
     
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  14. Ed Barton

    Ed Barton Well-Known Member

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    There is a lot of whining in this thread. That is just the result of normal mistakes...

    I experience a great public service in Brisbane. Translink is hopeless at suggesting journeys.

    Translink comes up with some really stupid suggestions for travel.
     
  15. qak

    qak Well-Known Member

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    ... pretty much anything, really.

    It has gotten worse since the 'new, improved' timetable was released last year.

    My son was 40 mins late that afternoon, which messed up our Thursday afternoon runaround kids activities (3.30/4.30/5.30!); but an acquaintance on Friday said it took him from 8-11pm to get home from CBD on 'that' day, for a trip that would normally take 40mins.
     
  16. ORAC

    ORAC Well-Known Member

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    The thing about timetables, similar to air traffic control, there's only a certain amount of time slots, train paths, trains and crew available, so unless the operator physically adds more capacity (i.e. more trains, more time-slots/paths, crew etc) then it's a bit like "re-arranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic" - one is just juggling around the same as what they got (if for example, passenger service pattern changes say in a more spread out peak hour but not more people this can be a valid strategy).

    However, more often than not it can be "sleight of hand" methods such as splitting say a 6-car train into 2 x 3-car train, or 12 car train into 2 x 6-car train (same number of physical carriages but appear to be additional trains, people are squeezed in), "skip-stopping" which means not stopping at certain stations, shorter runs and turnbacks, or simply re-allocating train runs / services. Improving the timetable should be about truly adding additional services / additional capacity - more trains / more frequent service. Improvements in signalling and train control is generally the most feasible enabling technology.
     
  17. qak

    qak Well-Known Member

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    Did they do this for this timetable change???

    I have a very basic understanding that the timetabling system is very complex, and why it falls down, especially when there's crew changes required - but I don't understand how a turn-up-and-go system (is this what you mean by metro?) gets around that problem - ultimately the crew will need to be in a certain place at shift change time.
     
  18. Depreciator

    Depreciator Well-Known Member

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    Gee, I must get lucky. I catch a train to and from the city everyday and hardly ever have an issue. Maybe once a fortnight a train is a bit crowded, but not excessively. Admittedly, I'm only half a dozen stops from the city centre. I never look at the timetable - just turn up and wait. A lot of the Airbnb guests who stay in my pad comment on how good the trains are - a few Americans have commented specifically on how little anti social behaviour they encounter. (I have never had a Japanese visitor, though. I suspect they would be harder to please.)
     
  19. Simon Hampel

    Simon Hampel Founder Staff Member

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    I'd suggest that is likely a result of which station you catch the train from and which line you travel on.
     
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  20. ORAC

    ORAC Well-Known Member

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    I can't comment specifically what Sydney trains may or may not do. However, to have a more metro style of operation where there is a train every few minutes would mean a major change to the operations and infrastructure because there would be physically more trains operating in the system, with their run-time (headway) closer together.

    The changes would include shorter signalling sections, more train-sets, and more crew, and would require additional stabling and storage (need to park the additional trains somewhere when not operating). Because, the Sydney network is complex, it would be best to continue to ratify the network to continue to segregate the lines and build more lines! In a modern metro where you have multiple lines with platform interchange, the trains basically run back and forth on that line and turn-around at the end stations. The application of technologies such as Communications Based Train Control (CBTC) can allow trains to run closer together protected by an "electronic safety barrier" and can allow "driverless" operation (either with an attendant/driver or without, i.e. use of automatic train operation to drive the train but can have an onboard supervisor).

    The current north-west Sydney metro is a CBTC metro style operation, and the future metro south-west including converting the existing Bankstown line with a new line under the harbour will also be CBTC operation. Converting the rest of the network into a more metro-style of operation is challenging. Hence, building new metro lines to alleviate the demand on the existing Sydney train network would be a positive step forward.
     

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